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Disappointing to read this.


ZR SLEDHEAD

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6 minutes ago, Greggie said:

There are a limited of snowmobilers who can afford to go for 3-4 days up to find the snow and spend there $1000... That is only for one trip, how many can afford to do this 2-3 times?

Go to the Ofsc Facebook page and there are lots of people complaining about the price of the permits....

So what. Those that payed for a permit expect groomed trails when they travel to ride. Obviously there is a ton of unspent money floating around. Or are you trying to say that if the temps dropped to -15 in district 1 and it snowed 60 cm, groomers would be parked because, after all, there is no money left to pay for grooming. Nobody gives a damn about clubs when they buy a permit, they are buying into a provincial system, and when it is obvious that most of this province only groomed trails three times of less this entire season, telling people that payed, that there is no money to groom where we do have snow, is stupid and bad for business. Especially when there is a ton of money that is out there already alloted for grooming that will not have to be given to southern clubs. 

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7 minutes ago, Greggie said:

Start a funding page and let’s see how many snowmobilers are willing to pay $50-100 to keep the clubs grooming?

The money has already been paid by the permit buyer. The OFSC is holding it. 

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6 hours ago, Greggie said:

There are a limited of snowmobilers who can afford to go for 3-4 days up to find the snow and spend there $1000... That is only for one trip, how many can afford to do this 2-3 times?

Go to the Ofsc Facebook page and there are lots of people complaining about the price of the permits....

Some of us do not go to say Mexico or Cuba for a winter getaway, but would rather flock to our sleds..so the 3-4 days and the 1000$ is right inline with what a cheap vacation would cost..  what I do not understand is the volume of people driving 8-9 plus hours to the northmost Ontario trails when they are beat up and the groomers can't keep up with all the traffic!  Much better to spend your time and money driving to Quebec.   The food and the whole sledding experience has always been better I have found.  We are still usually riding into April in mount valin area every year.  Maybe pass a few sleds...I will always buy a Quebec permit, as I usually head there 3-4 times a year, and have been putting on 80% of my mileage there.  Like others mentioned it is getting hard to justify paying a Ontario permit to only be able to ride a few days it seemed in my area of Parry Sound...

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I see what your saying about Quebec, but on the other side I'm sure that the majority of riders(groups)  almost all have ontario permits which make it easier to travel north in Ontario versus all having to buy mid season Quebec permits.  I do see the benefit if your group can plan early and get the early Quebec yearly permit though.  As others have said i can see a lot of people switching to a Quebec permit and doing longer trips there.  

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10 hours ago, Poo Man said:

What are you basing that on? I think the vast majority would easily pay $50 to $100 more IF THEY KNEW THEY COULD TRAVEL to decent trails which is zoso's point. 

The trail permits were more costly a few years back and people were whining and complaining about the cost. The permit numbers were dropping. The price went down and the permit numbers started to recover.

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On 2/27/2018 at 9:02 AM, 02Sled said:

The trail permits were more costly a few years back and people were whining and complaining about the cost. The permit numbers were dropping. The price went down and the permit numbers started to recover.

 

I agree that the OFSC needs permit dollars, but I'd rather pay a bit more and get rid of some whining douchebags ... I prefer quality over quantity any day.

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1 hour ago, Denis007 said:

 

I agree that the OFSC needs permit dollars, but I'd rather pay a bit more and get rid of some whining douchebags ... I prefer quality over quantity any day.

That is another consideration, less buyers with the same funds equals better trails. Permit needs to be a min of 250 early season 300 after dec 1, no more early early crap.

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9 hours ago, Denis007 said:

 

I agree that the OFSC needs permit dollars, but I'd rather pay a bit more and get rid of some whining douchebags ... I prefer quality over quantity any day.

the problem is that the whiners freeload and still suck their thumbs and bitch

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28 minutes ago, Wildbill said:

the problem is that the whiners freeload and still suck their thumbs and bitch

High fees are useless without enforcement too. 

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On 2/25/2018 at 8:35 PM, Greggie said:

Running a club is the same as running a business, it’s budgeting and planning, if you overspend you will run out of money,  sorry Brian running out of money after all the grooming hours are paid out, there is something wrong in spending the money...

I like to see the budget and the spending of their money If the club to see what’s going on...

If there is a concern on how the Clubs are spending the money why not change the system and have the clubs invoice the OFSC for services rendered? Give the clubs nothing and control the spending through a single source? Also, it seems the main club expense is fuel and grooming wages. In order to help police this expense put a GPS unit on the groomer to track its activity. This tracking device could also be used on the interactive web site to show the riders where the groomer is on the trail or what trail they are grooming. If there is that much discrepancy between clubs expenses (as this thread outlines) then there is a flaw on how expenses are being controlled. Now this thought may need to be modified to give the clubs SOME funding at the start of the year to get going say 25% of expected revenue needs but after that the OFSC takes over the distribution and allocation of funds based on being invoiced by each club. The OFSC would then be able to track spending at the club level.

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2 hours ago, Viperules700 said:

High fees are useless without enforcement too. 

Low fees are also useless without enforcement too. Some decent enforcement with some real teeth. $1000.00 fine for no permit would go a long way to solving the problem. Hit a few people with it and word would spread quickly.

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36 minutes ago, SteveB said:

If there is a concern on how the Clubs are spending the money why not change the system and have the clubs invoice the OFSC for services rendered? Give the clubs nothing and control the spending through a single source? Also, it seems the main club expense is fuel and grooming wages. In order to help police this expense put a GPS unit on the groomer to track its activity. This tracking device could also be used on the interactive web site to show the riders where the groomer is on the trail or what trail they are grooming. If there is that much discrepancy between clubs expenses (as this thread outlines) then there is a flaw on how expenses are being controlled. Now this thought may need to be modified to give the clubs SOME funding at the start of the year to get going say 25% of expected revenue needs but after that the OFSC takes over the distribution and allocation of funds based on being invoiced by each club. The OFSC would then be able to track spending at the club level.

For us fuel, grooming wages and repairs are paid at the district level already. If I'm not mistaken there are already GPS trackers on the groomers. More for safety reasons than anything else. The other aspects of GPS tracking are just an added benefit.

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On 2/26/2018 at 7:28 PM, Big Pete said:

That is true. But the Feb payment should have included an up date to the grooming forecast. This could potentially be where the problem lies  

Do the clubs in Northern Ontario receive more $ per grooming hour to help cover the cost of  items like the extra fuel used during extreme cold periods? A gentleman volunteering at the Moonbeam clubhouse told me on Feb.24th that they were getting the fuel tank for the groomers refilled every 7-9 days during the extreme cold they had for a number of weeks before we were there. He said that in "normal" weather they get it refilled every 14 days. 

The volume of traffic that the clubs from Kirkland Lake north are dealing with this year is far higher in February than what I have seen there on any of our past trips. Even the Moose Motel in SRF was apparently full this past weekend according to an Arctic Riders facebook post. It appears from what I have read that the cost of the extra grooming required since the first of February in some areas, to deal effectively with this volume will not result in those clubs getting more money until next year when it will be slightly reflected in their 4 year average. I stand to be corrected on that thought.

As I remember, one of the primary selling points of MOTS was to deal with issues like we are seeing this year where money would get moved from where it isn't being used for grooming to where more/extra grooming was being done. Is it working as advertised and if so is it working as quickly as required?

I would think that the Barrie office staff should be able to use the red on their new map to quickly determine which districts have extra money available and reduce payments (or claw back part of past payments) to get the dollars quickly moved to where they are needed. What are the District offices doing to help correct the shortfalls in the affected areas?

Also, I get the impression that there are some on this forum implying that if a club needs more funds to get through this busy season then those managing said clubs must be the funds they have received. Personally, I'm going to go on believing that the vast majority of those VOLUNTEERS are just doing the best they can with what they have to work with.

Rant over.

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On 2/26/2018 at 10:46 PM, Viperules700 said:

I will be going soon too and trails better be groomed as well, no excuse like zoso said. 

When are you going?

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43 minutes ago, 02Sled said:

For us fuel, grooming wages and repairs are paid at the district level already.

OK but do the clubs invoice the OFSC for these expenses or does/have the OFSC sent the clubs money at the start of the season to cover these expenses? Without the OFSC knowing what the clubs are paying for or how they are paying for services, there is no accountability at any club level to the OFSC for their expenses. If the clubs invoiced the OFSC for services then they (OFSC) could see exactly the cost a club is paying for services and control the spending. 

Furthermore, wIth GPS's in place on groomers the grooming time can be calculated to the minute of use. The grooming hours off the GPS should then be part of the invoice to the OFSC to quantify the expense. There has to be a correlation and justification of groomer expense and a GPS statement would address this. The bottom line is the OFSC has to take control of the expenses at the club level. The OFSC is a corporate membership based business and needs to be treated as such. 

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2 hours ago, Viperules700 said:

High fees are useless without enforcement too. 

I agree. Raise the price is good in my books but there must be something in return. It doesn't have to be anything big, just figure out enforcement, fix the app, take less then a month to get a permit transfer done!

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30 minutes ago, SteveB said:

OK but do the clubs invoice the OFSC for these expenses or does/have the OFSC sent the clubs money at the start of the season to cover these expenses? Without the OFSC knowing what the clubs are paying for or how they are paying for services, there is no accountability at any club level to the OFSC for their expenses. If the clubs invoiced the OFSC for services then they (OFSC) could see exactly the cost a club is paying for services and control the spending. 

Furthermore, wIth GPS's in place on groomers the grooming time can be calculated to the minute of use. The grooming hours off the GPS should then be part of the invoice to the OFSC to quantify the expense. There has to be a correlation and justification of groomer expense and a GPS statement would address this. The bottom line is the OFSC has to take control of the expenses at the club level. The OFSC is a corporate membership based business and needs to be treated as such. 

Steve, the clubs no longer deal directly with the OFSC. There is a District office for each district between the clubs and the OFSC. The district office deals with the clubs in their district.

I believe there are already GPS units in the groomers and have been for a number of years. As well, some clubs have SPOT units in their groomers.

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21 minutes ago, PISTON LAKE CRUISER said:

There is a District office for each district between the clubs and the OFSC.

Why is there a layer of communication/management required to translate information between the club and the OFSC? With the club doing the work on behalf of the members (trail pass holders) and the OFSC, why or better question, what services does the district office provide and why is it needed? Why can't the club communicate to the OFSC on their own behalf?

Also, if the groomers have a GPS unit, what does the club or district do with the information it receives from the groomers GPS? 

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1 hour ago, PISTON LAKE CRUISER said:

Do the clubs in Northern Ontario receive more $ per grooming hour to help cover the cost of  items like the extra fuel used during extreme cold periods? A gentleman volunteering at the Moonbeam clubhouse told me on Feb.24th that they were getting the fuel tank for the groomers refilled every 7-9 days during the extreme cold they had for a number of weeks before we were there. He said that in "normal" weather they get it refilled every 14 days

The volume of traffic that the clubs from Kirkland Lake north are dealing with this year is far higher in February than what I have seen there on any of our past trips. Even the Moose Motel in SRF was apparently full this past weekend according to an Arctic Riders facebook post. It appears from what I have read that the cost of the extra grooming required since the first of February in some areas, to deal effectively with this volume will not result in those clubs getting more money until next year when it will be slightly reflected in their 4 year average. I stand to be corrected on that thought.

As I remember, one of the primary selling points of MOTS was to deal with issues like we are seeing this year where money would get moved from where it isn't being used for grooming to where more/extra grooming was being done. Is it working as advertised and if so is it working as quickly as required?

I would think that the Barrie office staff should be able to use the red on their new map to quickly determine which districts have extra money available and reduce payments (or claw back part of past payments) to get the dollars quickly moved to where they are needed. What are the District offices doing to help correct the shortfalls in the affected areas?

Also, I get the impression that there are some on this forum implying that if a club needs more funds to get through this busy season then those managing said clubs must be the funds they have received. Personally, I'm going to go on believing that the vast majority of those VOLUNTEERS are just doing the best they can with what they have to work with.

Rant over.

The fuel aspect doesn't seem to make sense. From what you posted they are suggesting that fuel consumption in the cold days was almost doubled. The only thing I can see accounting for the added fuel consumption to that level is they simply kept the groomer idling all the time rather that stop and start it.

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On 2/26/2018 at 8:31 AM, bbakernbay said:

Luc Levesque, The Groomer Guy from Dubreaville posted the following on the Golden Corridor Kirkland Lake Facebook page which has prompted this discussion:

 

”Stephen Horner  You got it right, The more you groom the more you get paid... it's that simple that's how it works with the new funding model.  Maybe its the districts that are not distributing the money properly.  I'm the president of my club and that's how I get paid in my district. I submit my grooming logs to the district office, they send it to the OFSC they then get paid and then pay use per our groomed hours from log books... that's it.”

 

“Golden Corridor Snowdrifters Kirkland Lake & Area  The district are the one holding you money not the OFSC, submit your groomer logs and you will get paid... something is not right in your district if you are grooming many hours and not being paid... the problem is at the District level not the OFSC head office.  I'm only a club President, that's how it work here.”

on the bold

This quote is exactly how it works. The grooming hours are recorded in the operators logbook (backed up by the GPS stats)

The logbooks are submitted to the district, and  payment is sent to the club for the hours groomed.

If there is a problem with the club being paid, they (the club) should be discussing  it with their district, not bitching on social media.

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