Greggie Posted February 26, 2018 Share Posted February 26, 2018 1 hour ago, zoso said: Lets assume funding issues are real. Why is there not in place a way to expedite funds to clubs with snow that are out of money? Of course if the entire province is open and grooming there may well be no funds, but being most of the province has groomed very little it would seem there is something wrong in this system. I know other areas that are short on funds, and many have restricted grooming frequency due to this. Is this district not treating all clubs equally? Is the district also broke and has nothing to give, why are some clubs in the district still flush with cash? Did this club groom more than the average for the area leading up to this? Loots of aspects to this, but the bottom line is, the trails should be groomed, the permit buyers from all areas paid for these trails to be groomed being their home trails would be groomed if there was snow. Right now my home district has plenty of money to run groomers if we had snow, yet a club with snow claims they have no money. I doubt very much this has anything to do with how this club spent money, but more to do with the amount they were allocated to spend. As I said earlier all grooming hours are paid until Feb 15. Also that District and most likely that club. I don’t think that the Ofsc and the clubs are a welfare system. Every club get their fair share. If the club spent it all and is broke, it’s not the Ofsc responsibility to pull the chequebook, sorry. It’s time that the club opens their financials, explain how they spent it and take responsibility. Maybe they need to start a fundraising so that they can continue grooming. Most of the time the clubs are squealing because that is the easiest way. Why are there clubs who have still money? Because they are frugal with their money. if the Ofsc gives them money, why are we not hire people for putting up signs? Forgot the brushing, let’s hire a contractor with a brushed.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoso Posted February 26, 2018 Share Posted February 26, 2018 6 minutes ago, Greggie said: As I said earlier all grooming hours are paid until Feb 15. Also that District and most likely that club. I don’t think that the Ofsc and the clubs are a welfare system. Every club get their fair share. If the club spent it all and is broke, it’s not the Ofsc responsibility to pull the chequebook, sorry. It’s time that the club opens their financials, explain how they spent it and take responsibility. Maybe they need to start a fundraising so that they can continue grooming. Most of the time the clubs are squealing because that is the easiest way. Why are there clubs who have still money? Because they are frugal with their money. if the Ofsc gives them money, why are we not hire people for putting up signs? Forgot the brushing, let’s hire a contractor with a brushed.... You have a warped sense of what it is to be a permit buyer. The permit buyer is sold a province wide permit. When the trails are closed in 75% of the province money should not be an issue to have the open trails groomed to perfection for those shelling out thousands to travel to these areas. So, what you want to do is tell the guy that just drove 600kms checked into a motel and planned to sled for a week in an area that is open, that the club got its share and even though there are hundreds of thousands of dollars in permit money sitting in a bank, we refuse to give this club any more, and you now can go crap in your hat and ride moguls all week or just pack up and go home. When there is snow, we must groom, I do not give a rats ass what fund the money comes from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
02Sled Posted February 26, 2018 Share Posted February 26, 2018 To simply give this club more money without question sets a dangerous open cheque book precedent. Still way too many unknown variables. If they were totally irresponsible and "wasted" a lot of money which may be possible since the other "northern" clubs aren't in financial distress, just giving them more money condones irresponsible spending. The trails should be groomed but is this a "the sky is falling scenario?" Is there perhaps a political agenda to set a precedent for that club to be simply given more cash regardless of the circumstances? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viperules700 Posted February 26, 2018 Share Posted February 26, 2018 7 minutes ago, 02Sled said: To simply give this club more money without question sets a dangerous open cheque book precedent. Still way too many unknown variables. If they were totally irresponsible and "wasted" a lot of money which may be possible since the other "northern" clubs aren't in financial distress, just giving them more money condones irresponsible spending. The trails should be groomed but is this a "the sky is falling scenario?" Is there perhaps a political agenda to set a precedent for that club to be simply given more cash regardless of the circumstances? This area seems to be in a heavy drop staging area. No one wants to drive extra 3 hours in truck when they can ride. Terrain is difficult too. Maybe they are trying to keep high standards by grooming often, which has cost them allot of resources in last month, now they are feeling pinch and traffic isn't going away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoso Posted February 26, 2018 Share Posted February 26, 2018 9 minutes ago, 02Sled said: To simply give this club more money without question sets a dangerous open cheque book precedent. Still way too many unknown variables. If they were totally irresponsible and "wasted" a lot of money which may be possible since the other "northern" clubs aren't in financial distress, just giving them more money condones irresponsible spending. The trails should be groomed but is this a "the sky is falling scenario?" Is there perhaps a political agenda to set a precedent for that club to be simply given more cash regardless of the circumstances? So what, deal with that when the snow melts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbakernbay Posted February 26, 2018 Share Posted February 26, 2018 The Golden Corridor Snowdrifters Club in question have 2 Groomers, a Husky and a New Holland tractor, both of which look fairly new but that stands to be corrected. They started some packing just before Christmas with the Husky as the tractor was too heavy. How can they be out of money and needing to borrow $$ after 2 months of activity? Here is a page I copied from their FB post of December 20th. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoso Posted February 26, 2018 Share Posted February 26, 2018 6 minutes ago, bbakernbay said: The Golden Corridor Snowdrifters Club in question have 2 Groomers, a Husky and a New Holland tractor, both of which look fairly new but that stands to be corrected. They started some packing just before Christmas with the Husky as the tractor was too heavy. How can they be out of money and needing to borrow $$ after 2 months of activity? Here is a page I copied from their FB post of December 20th. I guess they spent what they were given. The question should be, not how are they out of money, but how many hours did they groom and how much money did they get. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoso Posted February 26, 2018 Share Posted February 26, 2018 Golden Corridor Snowdrifters Kirkland Lake & Area A couple years ago we had a disaster and our groomers were down. We were without grooming and that is hitting us on this average. Its nice to know the money will come but unfortunately we have to borrow in the meantime. It would be nice to know how much was coming. We have in the past had to stop grooming as there was no funds to send us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
revrnd Posted February 26, 2018 Share Posted February 26, 2018 Polar Bear Riders groom in the Cochrane area. Jackpine is in Iroquois Falls. Is Golden Corridor in the Kirkland Lake area? I know @ the start of the month, even w/ the large amount of snow, the trails didn't appear well groomed until past Matheson. Is D14 still grooming the Ramore area? How have folks since then found the trails in the KL area since? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROSTYNUTZ Posted February 26, 2018 Share Posted February 26, 2018 What am I missing ? Per someone elses post, each club is initially given 53.09 per km of trail in their club. Also, each club is given 58.24 per each hour of grooming. So, IF a club is still grooming, how is it running out of funds ? Are they having to do so many repairs at a high cost that the 58.24 per hour of grooming cann,t cover the fuel and repairs ? Or, since the OFSC actually owns the groomers, are the repair costs handled differently, and not part of the 58.24 per hour of grooming rate ? Just trying to understand how all this is suppose to work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poo Man Posted February 27, 2018 Share Posted February 27, 2018 1 hour ago, FROSTYNUTZ said: What am I missing ? Per someone elses post, each club is initially given 53.09 per km of trail in their club. Also, each club is given 58.24 per each hour of grooming. So, IF a club is still grooming, how is it running out of funds ? Are they having to do so many repairs at a high cost that the 58.24 per hour of grooming cann,t cover the fuel and repairs ? Or, since the OFSC actually owns the groomers, are the repair costs handled differently, and not part of the 58.24 per hour of grooming rate ? Just trying to understand how all this is suppose to work. I'm thinking same as you. Did they have a string of break downs and have no volunteers to fix so had to pay a lot more then usual? From the Facebook posts it doesn't seem that way? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbakernbay Posted February 27, 2018 Share Posted February 27, 2018 Big Pete posted this explanation back in 2016 which reflected a similar situation as to temporary funding shortage. “The reason the problem exists is that the Dec and Jan equalization payments are based on the 4 yr average for grooming hours. There is no attempt to adjust the grooming component for what the current season looks like.” The Golden Corridor Club said that had a very low grooming hour year 2 years ago which would then result in decreasing their 4 year average and thus a lesser payment in December and January. The other issue of course is how their particular District dispenses the funds but the February payment should take into account actual grooming hours this season, depending again on how the District divvies up the $$$. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Pete Posted February 27, 2018 Share Posted February 27, 2018 12 minutes ago, bbakernbay said: Big Pete posted this explanation back in 2016 which reflected a similar situation as to temporary funding shortage. “The reason the problem exists is that the Dec and Jan equalization payments are based on the 4 yr average for grooming hours. There is no attempt to adjust the grooming component for what the current season looks like.” That is true. But the Feb payment should have included an up date to the grooming forecast. This could potentially be where the problem lies Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbakernbay Posted February 27, 2018 Share Posted February 27, 2018 12 minutes ago, bbakernbay said: Big Pete posted this explanation back in 2016 which reflected a similar situation as to temporary funding shortage. “The reason the problem exists is that the Dec and Jan equalization payments are based on the 4 yr average for grooming hours. There is no attempt to adjust the grooming component for what the current season looks like.” The Golden Corridor Club said that had a very low grooming hour year 2 years ago which would then result in decreasing their 4 year average and thus a lesser payment in December and January. The other issue of course is how their particular District dispenses the funds but the February payment should take into account actual grooming hours this season, depending again on how the District divvies up the $$$. I just edited my post to add the 3rd paragraph at the very same time Big Pete posted similar advice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
revrnd Posted February 27, 2018 Share Posted February 27, 2018 20 minutes ago, bbakernbay said: Big Pete posted this explanation back in 2016 which reflected a similar situation as to temporary funding shortage. “The reason the problem exists is that the Dec and Jan equalization payments are based on the 4 yr average for grooming hours. There is no attempt to adjust the grooming component for what the current season looks like.” The Golden Corridor Club said that had a very low grooming hour year 2 years ago which would then result in decreasing their 4 year average and thus a lesser payment in December and January. The other issue of course is how their particular District dispenses the funds but the February payment should take into account actual grooming hours this season, depending again on how the District divvies up the $$$. 14 minutes ago, Big Pete said: That is true. But the Feb payment should have included an up date to the grooming forecast. This could potentially be where the problem lies 11 minutes ago, bbakernbay said: I just edited my post to add the 3rd paragraph at the very same time Big Pete posted similar advice. This being said & getting back to the OP's post, what does it accomplish by 'airing' this in public? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbakernbay Posted February 27, 2018 Share Posted February 27, 2018 This being said & getting back to the OP's post, what does it accomplish by 'airing' this in public? Probably Frustration, possibly giving their users and visitors an explanation as to why Grooming is being cut back, or a pressure tactic, or a lone wolf club or someone not authorized posting, who knows but it doesn’t seem to concern the Club as they posted similar sentiments again today. There doesn’t seem to be any posts from any other northern clubs so either they aren’t having any problems or they have chosen to work with their District in trying to resolve the matters. This will be my last post on this matter, hopefully it gets resolved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoso Posted February 27, 2018 Share Posted February 27, 2018 35 minutes ago, revrnd said: This being said & getting back to the OP's post, what does it accomplish by 'airing' this in public? it livens up this board. Beyond that it may get those holding the purse strings to get off their asses and get those groomers moving. Permit buyers do not give a crap about why, they just want groomed trails. Nobody seems to give a rats ass about the permit buyer, they act as though they should be happy with what they get and shut up about it. This attitude drives people away, from both buying a permit, and volunteering. Telling a person to shut up and never complain unless they spent 100 hours the past month volunteering is not conducive to having people want to volunteer. Hell they tell you to shut up if you do volunteer. As a matter of fact they came up with a code of conduct formatted document for all clubs telling them to shut up unless it was praise.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greggie Posted February 27, 2018 Share Posted February 27, 2018 1 hour ago, zoso said: it livens up this board. Beyond that it may get those holding the purse strings to get off their asses and get those groomers moving. Permit buyers do not give a crap about why, they just want groomed trails. Nobody seems to give a rats ass about the permit buyer, they act as though they should be happy with what they get and shut up about it. This attitude drives people away, from both buying a permit, and volunteering. Telling a person to shut up and never complain unless they spent 100 hours the past month volunteering is not conducive to having people want to volunteer. Hell they tell you to shut up if you do volunteer. As a matter of fact they came up with a code of conduct formatted document for all clubs telling them to shut up unless it was praise.. You think that if a club is out of money, to make permit buyers happy, Ofsc has to write them a cheque? Where did you get that from? Why is the club not responsible? You tell me Zozo, please.. Beside the club, comes the District, does they will give this broke club money? Why not? If the permit buyers aren’t happy with Golden Corridor, why are they buying permits of that club? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoso Posted February 27, 2018 Share Posted February 27, 2018 6 minutes ago, Greggie said: You think that if a club is out of money, to make permit buyers happy, Ofsc has to write them a cheque? Where did you get that from? Why is the club not responsible? You tell me Zozo, please.. Beside the club, comes the District, does they will give this broke club money? Why not? If the permit buyers aren’t happy with Golden Corridor, why are they buying permits of that club? I think that when we have only these northern trails open we damn well better make sure they are groomed. Sort out what happened later and take measures to remedy it. 99% of the people riding these trails do not live there, how can you not understand that. people are flocking to this area because it is February, and they want to ride their machines and trails close to their home, where they buy permits are not open. My point is simple, get funding to this club to pay the operators and fuel the groomers, then figure out what went wrong and fix it over the next 8 months when there is no snow anywhere and people have stored their sleds. We have 80k permit buyers and the only trails we have to ride are in Northern Ontario. 80 thousand people payed for groomed trails and do not give a crap about internal bickering because they know damn well there was enough money paid this year to groom 25% of ontario's trail system in February. You cannot see the optics of this can you. You simply cannot see this from the permit buyers perspective. You would rather let the permit buyer ride crap while you do a forensic audit of their books to make sure they did not waste any money. i do not care if the club stole all the money, deal with it after the season is done, right now finance the grooming operations so people can enjoy what they paid for. Otherwise expect even more people to say screw the OFSC, my home trails are closed and when I travel to ride the trails are not groomed, no way am I paying for a permit ever again. That is what will happen and permit sales will drop even more. At least if people have a wonderful experience when they spend all kinds of money to travel, they may still see value in the permit, even though they did not get a season at home. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greggie Posted February 27, 2018 Share Posted February 27, 2018 18 minutes ago, zoso said: I think that when we have only these northern trails open we damn well better make sure they are groomed. Sort out what happened later and take measures to remedy it. 99% of the people riding these trails do not live there, how can you not understand that. people are flocking to this area because it is February, and they want to ride their machines and trails close to their home, where they buy permits are not open. My point is simple, get funding to this club to pay the operators and fuel the groomers, then figure out what went wrong and fix it over the next 8 months when there is no snow anywhere and people have stored their sleds. We have 80k permit buyers and the only trails we have to ride are in Northern Ontario. 80 thousand people payed for groomed trails and do not give a crap about internal bickering because they know damn well there was enough money paid this year to groom 25% of ontario's trail system in February. You cannot see the optics of this can you. You simply cannot see this from the permit buyers perspective. You would rather let the permit buyer ride crap while you do a forensic audit of their books to make sure they did not waste any money. i do not care if the club stole all the money, deal with it after the season is done, right now finance the grooming operations so people can enjoy what they paid for. Otherwise expect even more people to say screw the OFSC, my home trails are closed and when I travel to ride the trails are not groomed, no way am I paying for a permit ever again. That is what will happen and permit sales will drop even more. At least if people have a wonderful experience when they spend all kinds of money to travel, they may still see value in the permit, even though they did not get a season at home. Also from the permit buyers perspective, giving them money doesn’t make sense. We have here in Ontario people who are very cheap and find that paying $190 for a permit is already a lot while in Quebec the permits are about $100 more expensive. So what does the permit buyer want? Paying less then the $190, having snow from November until April, always well groomed trails and they have still the opinion that they are paying too much. The Ofsc can’t give money to clubs because they spent already too much or the permit price need to go up. Where can the Ofsc pull the money from and do it so that it’s fair to all the other clubs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoso Posted February 27, 2018 Share Posted February 27, 2018 6 minutes ago, Greggie said: Also from the permit buyers perspective, giving them money doesn’t make sense. We have here in Ontario people who are very cheap and find that paying $190 for a permit is already a lot while in Quebec the permits are about $100 more expensive. So what does the permit buyer want? Paying less then the $190, having snow from November until April, always well groomed trails and they have still the opinion that they are paying too much. The Ofsc can’t give money to clubs because they spent already too much or the permit price need to go up. Where can the Ofsc pull the money from and do it so that it’s fair to all the other clubs? Ya right, the permit buyer wants the trails not groomed because the club MIGHT have not been prudent with funds. You have no clue what permit buyers want....here, I will hip you up. They want groomed trails. That is it that is all. And there is no excuse not to have these trails groomed. I do not care if every single cent given this club was stolen by a member, deal with it later and get the job done. This is ludicrous, it is not ok, and if the OFSC and district cannot get their crap together and get this done, then they are useless. I get it Greg, you want the north to fail and the trails up there to close, you have been saying it for 10 years. You think everyone up there is stealing money and committing fraud. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poo Man Posted February 27, 2018 Share Posted February 27, 2018 8 minutes ago, Greggie said: Ontario people who are very cheap and find that paying $190 for a permit is already a lot while in Quebec the permits are about $100 more expensive. So what does the permit buyer want? Paying less then the $190, having snow from November until April, always well groomed trails What are you basing that on? I think the vast majority would easily pay $50 to $100 more IF THEY KNEW THEY COULD TRAVEL to decent trails which is zoso's point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coldfinger Posted February 27, 2018 Share Posted February 27, 2018 Zoso Right On Awesome Post . Most of the riders l know are up north now or are going . That club has a great trail system and is a Vital tourist link. Get them what they need know management can piss and moan about it for the next 8 months . Greggie this permit buyer wants the money spent were the snow is . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viperules700 Posted February 27, 2018 Share Posted February 27, 2018 10 minutes ago, coldfinger said: Zoso Right On Awesome Post . Most of the riders l know are up north now or are going . That club has a great trail system and is a Vital tourist link. Get them what they need know management can piss and moan about it for the next 8 months . Greggie this permit buyer wants the money spent were the snow is . I will be going soon too and trails better be groomed as well, no excuse like zoso said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greggie Posted February 27, 2018 Share Posted February 27, 2018 14 minutes ago, Poo Man said: What are you basing that on? I think the vast majority would easily pay $50 to $100 more IF THEY KNEW THEY COULD TRAVEL to decent trails which is zoso's point. There are a limited of snowmobilers who can afford to go for 3-4 days up to find the snow and spend there $1000... That is only for one trip, how many can afford to do this 2-3 times? Go to the Ofsc Facebook page and there are lots of people complaining about the price of the permits.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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