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Disappointing to read this.


ZR SLEDHEAD

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11 hours ago, Wildbill said:

 58.24 is based on a provincial average and does not cover all of the costs everywhere. In areas that see high traffic volume you must groom at night making it very hard to find volunteers to groom at night. Compounding the problem is that in sparsly populated areas you have a much smaller pool to draw from. The provincial average also does not take into account the differences in terrain grooming on rock and muskeg beats up the machinery much more than grooming on farmland and very much increases costs somehow this needs to be recognized or snowmobiling will suffer

I agree the $ per km is very debatable on whether it covers costs.  But you’re saying $58 an hour doesn’t cover operating expenses on a groomer?  Come on.  Anyone in the construction business with mid sized equipment would balk if their costs exceeded this.  And those guys are paying the amortization on their equipment.  Let’s do some basic math.

 

$20 an hour for a operator

$2.60 an hour for employment expenses (WSIB, Etc)

$10 - $20 an hour for fuel depending on what equipment you’re running

 

You come up with $42.60 worst case.  This leaves $15 - $16 an hour for maintenance.  Are you saying you go through $150 in parts / maintenance costs in a 10 hour shift?  Or $1500 for every 100 hours?  No doubt the clubs have other costs.  That’s the big argument here.  What’s reasonable for these other costs?  That’s what the OFSC is cracking down on.  In the past there have been clubs operating at $30 an hour.  And those operating at $200 an hour.  Things need to be drawn into line.  Should there be further discussion on the $ per km.  Yes there probably should be.  But $58 is a fair number to work with.  

 

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23 minutes ago, revrnd said:

Saw a lot of that this season "KLSC is grooming the railbed and Paudash is still red!" You feel like posting, "Two different types of terrain you effing idiot!" 

When I was v.p for a club I learned real quick how to use the backspace button.... LOL

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26 minutes ago, bbakernbay said:

Greggie, I think the primary issue is that almost the entire trail system south of Highway 17 is closed or has been closed for a considerable period of time.

 

There is a very small section of Ontario that has sufficient snow to be able to be groomed and many sledders are heading there to get some sledding in.

 

The OFSC is sending out multiple Facebook posts encouraging everyone to get up north and enjoy their trails.

 

This is only the 3rd week of February, not mid-March or even early April.

 

This lack of funding is inconceivable to many who thought that MOTS was the new and improved funding model that would address these needs.

 

You Groom, you get paid for it!

 

Why isn’t this new funding model not working.

 

I don’t believe this is about Clubs throwing money around and not being frugal as you keep suggesting.

 

Clubs needing to borrow money to pay their bills in mid-February is shocking as is the District supposedly getting $5,900 to be split amongst 10 Clubs.

 

I would be hard presssed as a Club President up there not to be feeling hard done by.

 

 

Brian, what do you think is the reason that the District received only $5900 and not $25,000? It’s because they didn’t “deserved” more if you look at the “corrected” grooming hours.

We have for almost 4 years on MOTS and we get the last payment in April. Is the last payment to finish the season or to start the next season? I understand for the North who have a longer season, an other payment in March would work and if I am right, in the past it happens also that there was an extra payment to keep grooming going. 

 

Why is the Ofsc sending out the advertisement to go North? Easy answer there are lots of people who bought a permit and haven’t drove 10 kms this season. The permit sales is already lower then last year, do we want to loose 10,000-15,000 permits next year????

Well Brian, there is lots of money pissed away every year. Most people don’t know it but there is way more “wrong” spending then most people know. If you compare the different spending in the 230 clubs, in the different Districts, you are surprising with the results. Have done it and know where I am talking about.

Running a club is the same as running a business, it’s budgeting and planning, if you overspend you will run out of money,  sorry Brian running out of money after all the grooming hours are paid out, there is something wrong in spending the money...

I like to see the budget and the spending of their money If the club to see what’s going on...

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I'm not involved in the financial side of our club in D1, just a volunteer for over 30 years in the grunt work side of things and a groomer operator for the last six so I don't have Pete's knowledge of how things work.

 

But to me, regardless of what is going on in the northern districts, how we have come to learn of the situation ( right or wrong) the OFSC now knows of this. 

So between OFSC, the district and the clubs involved, get it figured out ASAP!

 

I don't want money pissed away, but there has to be a way to get it resolved while we have snow, not in June.

 

 

 

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I don't know anything about their situation, but I just got back from a ride with about 20 other club execs/volunteer/operators from across the Norther Corridor.  I can say none of the discussion touched on worrying about finances/costs, some concern about being able to groom enough with the increased traffic, both due to volunteers and simple reality (Kenny can only groom the A trail through Cochrane once a day at most regardless of how rough it gets by the afternoon).  Now across our district there is only 1 paid operator so that could be part of it and creates its own issues.  

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The $5,900 February Payment spread over 10 Clubs in their District with only one Groomer apiece looks after one day’s grooming for each groomer.  No wonder it wasn’t well received.

 

Something is not computing here or maybe it is and the system is broke, literally and figuratively.

 

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26 minutes ago, cornbinder said:

the major problem we are facing is us .  I do not know what planet  some snowmobilers have been on for twenty years,  but clubs south of the forty fifth parallel haven.t had a snow year or good season in decades  people continue to buy passes in  their  home area and ride in the north       a three week season does not warrant a new groomer and clubhouse while all the small clubs with three month season are folding due to over use  i bought two permits in the north from small clubs currently showing green trails . and as usual the south of snow clubs will be there using trails they don't fund   Next year buy your pass in the north or stay home and look at grass  under your new groomer

Not sure if you understand where you are talking about. Yes there are more permit buyers in the South as in the North. I am not surprised if we sell next year 10,000-15,000 less permits with this bad winter. Do you have any idea what that means for the North next year? Well is can be that the hourly groomer amount from $59 will go back to $49. You talk about the nice shiny groomers and clubhouses, well without the South there were no trails in the North...

to buy a pass up North, the max difference is $20-26 for every sold permit. Under Mots, they don’t get more money then anyone else... As I said earlier,  there are more and more snowmobilers buying only a Quebec permit, an other way we are loosing permit dollars..

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7 minutes ago, Greggie said:

Not sure if you understand where you are talking about. Yes there are more permit buyers in the South as in the North. I am not surprised if we sell next year 10,000-15,000 less permits with this bad winter. Do you have any idea what that means for the North next year? Well is can be that the hourly groomer amount from $59 will go back to $49. You talk about the nice shiny groomers and clubhouses, well without the South there were no trails in the North...

to buy a pass up North, the max difference is $20-26 for every sold permit. Under Mots, they don’t get more money then anyone else... As I said earlier,  there are more and more snowmobilers buying only a Quebec permit, an other way we are loosing permit dollars..

The ones that live close enough to quebec to buy a camp there and ride there would be smart to do so; Trails are better, snow is better, grooming is better, and property is half the price.

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How else can the club spend money other then groomer hours and maintenance of the ofsc owns the equipment? Asking out of total ignorance

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15 minutes ago, bbakernbay said:

The $5,900 February Payment spread over 10 Clubs in their District with only one Groomer apiece looks after one day’s grooming for each groomer.  No wonder it wasn’t well received.

 

Something is not computing here or maybe it is and the system is broke, literally and figuratively.

 

Brian are you suggesting that the Ofsc did screw the District by giving them only $5900? Why would the Ofsc pay them more then the $59 for the grooming hours they made??

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7 minutes ago, Poo Man said:

How else can the club spend money other then groomer hours and maintenance of the ofsc owns the equipment? Asking out of total ignorance

There are clubs who don’t maintain there groomers, don’t do preventative maintenances and for the repairs they are doing absolutely nothing by them self...

Have seen clubs spending between $25-30 on maintenance for every grooming hour..

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26 minutes ago, zoso said:

Greggie you have a hatred of northern clubs and have for years.

Again, I don’t hate them, absolute not. If there was no South, there was no North. The South will survive without the North...

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8 minutes ago, Greggie said:

There are clubs who don’t maintain there groomers, don’t do preventative maintenances and for the repairs they are doing absolutely nothing by them self...

Have seen clubs spending between $25-30 on maintenance for every grooming hour..

Just a thought here but do you think they were trying to get some grooming money recovered under maintenance??

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1 hour ago, cornbinder said:

the major problem we are facing is us .  I do not know what planet  some snowmobilers have been on for twenty years,  but clubs south of the forty fifth parallel haven.t had a snow year or good season in decades  people continue to buy passes in  their  home area and ride in the north       a three week season does not warrant a new groomer and clubhouse while all the small clubs with three month season are folding due to over use  i bought two permits in the north from small clubs currently showing green trails . and as usual the south of snow clubs will be there using trails they don't fund   Next year buy your pass in the north or stay home and look at grass  under your new groomer

The "major problem" may be more major, and more permanent than those of us in the south are prepared to admit. Global warming is a fact. What contributes to it can be debated, but the warming is a fact? That is why almost all of the warmest February days on record have happened in the past 3 years. Maybe a provincial model that includes trails down to Lake Erie is not viable. Have you ever looked at a map of North America and noticed where southern Ontario is? Maybe a "provincial" trail system should start in northern cottage country and extend north from there. I know that there are a ton of volunteers in the south that administrate, obtain landowner permissions, get the signage up, clear the brush, groom and more, for what amounts to a two week season. Should that effort be part of the OFSC mandate? Let's get honest with ourselves. I know that OFSC just completed a re-think, but it was based on last decade parameters. Another re-think is required, and not a top-down one.

That's just one opinion from an avid sledder living in the south who has sledded in the south about six days in the past three years.

Oh, and no club/district/OFSC financial discussion belongs on Facebook or any other social media!!!!!

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13 minutes ago, gobills said:

Just a thought here but do you think they were trying to get some grooming money recovered under maintenance??

There is nothing to recover. Most groomers use about 12-16 litre of diesel a hour. This at a about $0.95 is say $15 for fuel then about $15 for a grooming hour that is about $30 a hour. The District gets paid $59 a hour and they take their share so a club gets maybe $50 for a grooming hour. In this case there is only $20 left for maintenance, groomer damage and so on. With frugal spending and doing as much maintenance by volunteers and you will survive....

Then are there still the Old Boys clubs, who will have forever problems with getting volunteers....

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23 minutes ago, tricky said:

The "major problem" may be more major, and more permanent than those of us in the south are prepared to admit. Global warming is a fact. What contributes to it can be debated, but the warming is a fact? That is why almost all of the warmest February days on record have happened in the past 3 years. Maybe a provincial model that includes trails down to Lake Erie is not viable. Have you ever looked at a map of North America and noticed where southern Ontario is? Maybe a "provincial" trail system should start in northern cottage country and extend north from there. I know that there are a ton of volunteers in the south that administrate, obtain landowner permissions, get the signage up, clear the brush, groom and more, for what amounts to a two week season. Should that effort be part of the OFSC mandate? Let's get honest with ourselves. I know that OFSC just completed a re-think, but it was based on last decade parameters. Another re-think is required, and not a top-down one.

That's just one opinion from an avid sledder living in the south who has sledded in the south about six days in the past three years.

Oh, and no club/district/OFSC financial discussion belongs on Facebook or any other social media!!!!!

If you stop opening trails down south those that live there, buy a permit, ride the two or three weeks they get trails and do not trailer north nor desire to to, are out. That may be 50k permit sales gone, then what....the southern permit buyer does subsidize northern trails, of that there is no debate. the first place to cut off is district 17, they can join snoman.

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36 minutes ago, Greggie said:

Again, I don’t hate them, absolute not. If there was no South, there was no North. The South will survive without the North...

May be true of the south east, but is a stupid statement for the southwest. There is no snow in the southwest and hasn't been for years now. What good are financially successful snowmobile clubs/districts when there is no snow?

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6 minutes ago, tricky said:

May be true of the south east, but is a stupid statement for the southwest. There is no snow in the southwest and hasn't been for years now. What good are financially successful snowmobile clubs/districts when there is no snow?

they cook good wings...seriously, many guys buy in district 5, look at the stats. Much of that money makes its way out of that district and supports the northern clubs. I guess the question would be, how many would buy if they had zero chance to ride at home....not many, just travel and buy a weekend pass, then go to qc for a weekend..there is only so much a family man can spend, and only so many days away with the boys that the family would endure., 

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Cripes we had an abysmal season here in D2. Twice we had 15" on the snow stick & it (& the trails) were lost due to the crappy weather.

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56 minutes ago, zoso said:

If you stop opening trails down south those that live there, buy a permit, ride the two or three weeks they get trails and do not trailer north nor desire to to, are out. That may be 50k permit sales gone, then what....the southern permit buyer does subsidize northern trails, of that there is no debate. the first place to cut off is district 17, they can join snoman.

You are not far away from the truth. If there are no trails under the North Bay line, there will be less then 30,000 permits sold. Leaving home on Friday and coming back Sunday cost about $600..? How many snowmobilers can afford that doing 3-4 times a season?

MOTS will help out to keep financial the trails open in whole Ontario. Yes we can do more payments for the final payment, no problem. You guys wanted new shiny groomers, we got them and are paying a high price for it. We are selling off older reliable groomers , maybe say giving them away.... Smart, not in my calculations...

This season not one District get farther on MOTS. Why? It seems that this season Ofsc is busy with other things. Are we going on with MOTS next season, I think that MOTS will be changed before it will rolled out to the other Districts. I am not sure but I don’t think that giving all authority from the clubs to the District, what is part of this MOTS is working out...

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8 minutes ago, Greggie said:

You are not far away from the truth. If there are no trails under the North Bay line, there will be less then 30,000 permits sold. Leaving home on Friday and coming back Sunday cost about $600..? How many snowmobilers can afford that doing 3-4 times a season?

MOTS will help out to keep financial the trails open in whole Ontario. Yes we can do more payments for the final payment, no problem. You guys wanted new shiny groomers, we got them and are paying a high price for it. We are selling off older reliable groomers , maybe say giving them away.... Smart, not in my calculations...

This season not one District get farther on MOTS. Why? It seems that this season Ofsc is busy with other things. Are we going on with MOTS next season, I think that MOTS will be changed before it will rolled out to the other Districts. I am not sure but I don’t think that giving all authority from the clubs to the District, what is part of this MOTS is working out...

We have asked time and time again for a refurbishment program for the older groomers we have been dissapointed in the newer ones 

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1 hour ago, zoso said:

they cook good wings...seriously, many guys buy in district 5, look at the stats. Much of that money makes its way out of that district and supports the northern clubs. I guess the question would be, how many would buy if they had zero chance to ride at home....not many, just travel and buy a weekend pass, then go to qc for a weekend..there is only so much a family man can spend, and only so many days away with the boys that the family would endure., 

I'm one of the D5 riders that hasn't had my sled out of the garage for the last 3 years. I didn't even get my permit put on the sled the last 2 years. If the trails disappear in D5 I won't be buying any more permits. I expect a lot of other D5 permit buyers will be the same. The OFSC will end up losing a lot of revenue. The north may have the snow but the south is paying the bills.

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