Wildbill Posted February 25, 2018 Share Posted February 25, 2018 58.24 is based on a provincial average and does not cover all of the costs everywhere. In areas that see high traffic volume you must groom at night making it very hard to find volunteers to groom at night. Compounding the problem is that in sparsly populated areas you have a much smaller pool to draw from. The provincial average also does not take into account the differences in terrain grooming on rock and muskeg beats up the machinery much more than grooming on farmland and very much increases costs somehow this needs to be recognized or snowmobiling will suffer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viperules700 Posted February 25, 2018 Share Posted February 25, 2018 55 minutes ago, Wildbill said: 58.24 is based on a provincial average and does not cover all of the costs everywhere. In areas that see high traffic volume you must groom at night making it very hard to find volunteers to groom at night. Compounding the problem is that in sparsly populated areas you have a much smaller pool to draw from. The provincial average also does not take into account the differences in terrain grooming on rock and muskeg beats up the machinery much more than grooming on farmland and very much increases costs somehow this needs to be recognized or snowmobiling will suffer They are paying operators not volunteers. Could be a constant battle to try and keep up to crazy traffic volume, that they aren't used to having. I was in mattawa a few years ago and they only had one groomer and no way it could keep up to traffic even though it was out 12 hours or more every night. South finally set a second unit and operator to area to lend a hand, when it broke down. The place was a snow cross track when I left, no grooming for several days, and crazy traffic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
02Sled Posted February 25, 2018 Share Posted February 25, 2018 1 hour ago, Viperules700 said: Losing the groomer to mots and not many locals ride that trail, so club wanted to concentrate on trails that most riders use. With traffic now, doubt it would be groomed anyways. Operators and some equipment should be sent to north for march break. The big loop is open equipment should be utilized in high traffic area's to keep things under control. Long ago the consensus was that there needed to be some rationalization on what trails actually got kept and groomed in most areas. Some clubs have had trails with VERY little use that were being groomed and maintained. Sometimes it just doesn't make sense to groom a trail for just a handful of riders that MAY use the trail and focus on the much more trafficked trails. I'm going to be devils advocate for a moment. If I'm not mistaken the going rate for a groomer operator is $17/hr. With the provincial increase in minimum wage from $11.40 to $14 and possibly next year $15 will the rate for a groomer operator have to go up proportionately to get people to do these long middle of the night runs? Going from $11.40 to $15 would be a 31.5% increase. Does that mean we would need to increase the groomer pay by 31.5% ($5.35/hr) to $22.35/hr. to be able to get people to do the job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildbill Posted February 25, 2018 Share Posted February 25, 2018 39 minutes ago, 02Sled said: Long ago the consensus was that there needed to be some rationalization on what trails actually got kept and groomed in most areas. Some clubs have had trails with VERY little use that were being groomed and maintained. Sometimes it just doesn't make sense to groom a trail for just a handful of riders that MAY use the trail and focus on the much more trafficked trails. I'm going to be devils advocate for a moment. If I'm not mistaken the going rate for a groomer operator is $17/hr. With the provincial increase in minimum wage from $11.40 to $14 and possibly next year $15 will the rate for a groomer operator have to go up proportionately to get people to do these long middle of the night runs? Going from $11.40 to $15 would be a 31.5% increase. Does that mean we would need to increase the groomer pay by 31.5% ($5.35/hr) to $22.35/hr. to be able to get people to do the job. Our operators start at 14 per hour to a high of 19 not big wages for nighttime unsecure work Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROSTYNUTZ Posted February 25, 2018 Share Posted February 25, 2018 Quote 17 or even 20 bucks per hour is not enough to get competent, smart groomer operators, who are capable of always making the right decisions. They are in control of very costly machinery, and in my mind, should be paid accordingly. Spending a little more on great operators would likely be less costly in the long run. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbakernbay Posted February 25, 2018 Share Posted February 25, 2018 And what about the clubs with strictly Volunteers doing the grooming, are those clubs being fairly compensated? And of course the obvious question, What would happen to the system if every groomer operator was paid for every hour groomed in the Province? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Techdenis007 Posted February 25, 2018 Share Posted February 25, 2018 6 minutes ago, bbakernbay said: And what about the clubs with strictly Volunteers doing the grooming, are those clubs being fairly compensated? And of course the obvious question, What would happen to the system if every groomer operator was paid for every hour groomed in the Province? We would pay more for our permits knowing that finding groomer operators is no longer an issue. And who knows.... we may never see stupid posts from club execs on Facebook like the one above.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildbill Posted February 25, 2018 Share Posted February 25, 2018 10 minutes ago, bbakernbay said: And what about the clubs with strictly Volunteers doing the grooming, are those clubs being fairly compensated? And of course the obvious question, What would happen to the system if every groomer operator was paid for every hour groomed in the Province? What happens to the sport when the sparsely populated areas fail because they cannot find the volunteers to groom all night every night? Often these areas are a great place to ride as they fail so does our sport Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Techdenis007 Posted February 25, 2018 Share Posted February 25, 2018 18 minutes ago, Wildbill said: What happens to the sport when the sparsely populated areas fail because they cannot find the volunteers to groom all night every night? Often these areas are a great place to ride as they fail so does our sport Our nearby clubs groom daytime only, mostly weekdays with some exceptions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
02Sled Posted February 25, 2018 Share Posted February 25, 2018 31 minutes ago, Wildbill said: Our operators start at 14 per hour to a high of 19 not big wages for nighttime unsecure work 32 minutes ago, FROSTYNUTZ said: 17 or even 20 bucks per hour is not enough to get competent, smart groomer operators, who are capable of always making the right decisions. They are in control of very costly machinery, and in my mind, should be paid accordingly. Spending a little more on great operators would likely be less costly in the long run. one thing is for sure.... they aren't getting rich off of it. I get the sense that some of the operators have seasonal summer jobs that they are laid off from through the winter and some have either part time or other relatively low paying winter jobs. I'm not so sure I would want to be doing a 12 hour trip into the darkness starting at 4:00 PM. But that's just me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildbill Posted February 25, 2018 Share Posted February 25, 2018 6 minutes ago, Denis007 said: Our nearby clubs groom daytime only, mostly weekdays with some exceptions. In the cottage belt often the only way to get a quality trail is to groom at night there is just too much traffic during the day. We have seen traffic counts in excess of 1500 sleds in a day on the Seguin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROSTYNUTZ Posted February 25, 2018 Share Posted February 25, 2018 Quote So the clubs get paid by the OFSC for each hour of grooming, and they expect competent volunteers to run the groomers for nothing ? What qualifies a person to operate a groomer ? I cann,t imagine the clubs just let anyone have control of 250K worth of machinery ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
02Sled Posted February 25, 2018 Share Posted February 25, 2018 31 minutes ago, bbakernbay said: And what about the clubs with strictly Volunteers doing the grooming, are those clubs being fairly compensated? And of course the obvious question, What would happen to the system if every groomer operator was paid for every hour groomed in the Province? My understanding is that they are all paid. Something to do with WSIB and liability if I recall. Apparently some opt to donate their pay back to the club. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildbill Posted February 25, 2018 Share Posted February 25, 2018 5 minutes ago, 02Sled said: My understanding is that they are all paid. Something to do with WSIB and liability if I recall. Apparently some opt to donate their pay back to the club. Not true some clubs do not pay at all Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
02Sled Posted February 25, 2018 Share Posted February 25, 2018 9 minutes ago, Wildbill said: Not true some clubs do not pay at all I thought that under the "new" model the operators were all paid from the district level, had to have a driver's abstract submitted and training to be compliant with insurance requirements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildbill Posted February 25, 2018 Share Posted February 25, 2018 7 minutes ago, 02Sled said: I thought that under the "new" model the operators were all paid from the district level, had to have a driver's abstract submitted and training to be compliant with insurance requirements. nope that is part of what drives the provincial average grooming cost down so low Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greggie Posted February 25, 2018 Share Posted February 25, 2018 Up north, they need to learn to groom when it’s necessary. Grooming all trails every day or every other day isn’t always necessary, special when most of the trails are open in Ontario. As Pete said, every grooming hour get paid the same amount in whole Ontario. Did the calculation a couple of years ago and the average groomer wages was about $9, this from all clubs in Ontario. Maintenance is the biggest problem for some clubs. Some clubs are spending three times more money on it then other clubs for every hour. Part of it is having not the best groomer operators who don’t take the care of it and are hard on it. The reason that the trail to Quebec was closed a couple of years ago, was to be rebelling against MOTS. Overall a groomer can easy take care of 125-150 kms of trail and grooming it 2-3 times a week. For sure fir grooming the trails every day, you need more groomers. You will see more and more that snowmobilers are buying also a Quebec permit. They get overall more snow then in Ontario. MOTS or no MOTS this will not change. I think that MOTS was invented to stop clubs who are overspending. As example, there are clubs who spend between $20-150+ on each km of trail for trail work. Admin, landowners appreciation, groomer maintenance and so on.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greggie Posted February 25, 2018 Share Posted February 25, 2018 Paid groomer operators, in my opinion it’s finding groomer operators who are used to run heavy equipment and not everyone who likes to run a groomer. Driving a groomer is easy but operating a groomer and using the blade and drag takes hunderds thousands of hours to use it as good as possible. Groomer operators who like to groom for the money, don’t hire them, they are in most cases costly. You need to hire or get the operators who love to do it and take the money as bonus... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MXZ41 Posted February 25, 2018 Share Posted February 25, 2018 27 minutes ago, bbakernbay said: Please enlighten me as to why this is a “stupid post” I'm pretty sure they mean the club exec airing dirty laundry on Facebook not this discussion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbakernbay Posted February 25, 2018 Share Posted February 25, 2018 7 minutes ago, MXZ41 said: I'm pretty sure they mean the club exec airing dirty laundry on Facebook not this discussion I think you are quite right, I will delete mine. I questioned the Facebook reference but didn’t put it together with Club’s post. Thank You Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildbill Posted February 25, 2018 Share Posted February 25, 2018 1 hour ago, Greggie said: Up north, they need to learn to groom when it’s necessary. Grooming all trails every day or every other day isn’t always necessary, special when most of the trails are open in Ontario. As Pete said, every grooming hour get paid the same amount in whole Ontario. Did the calculation a couple of years ago and the average groomer wages was about $9, this from all clubs in Ontario. Maintenance is the biggest problem for some clubs. Some clubs are spending three times more money on it then other clubs for every hour. Part of it is having not the best groomer operators who don’t take the care of it and are hard on it. The reason that the trail to Quebec was closed a couple of years ago, was to be rebelling against MOTS. Overall a groomer can easy take care of 125-150 kms of trail and grooming it 2-3 times a week. For sure fir grooming the trails every day, you need more groomers. You will see more and more that snowmobilers are buying also a Quebec permit. They get overall more snow then in Ontario. MOTS or no MOTS this will not change. I think that MOTS was invented to stop clubs who are overspending. As example, there are clubs who spend between $20-150+ on each km of trail for trail work. Admin, landowners appreciation, groomer maintenance and so on.... Terrain plays a big part in the cost of groomer maintenance. Local population plays a big part in the amount of volunteers. Traffic volume plays a big part in how often a trail must be groomed as well as when it can be groomed. One size fits all funding will not be sustainable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
revrnd Posted February 25, 2018 Share Posted February 25, 2018 2 hours ago, Wildbill said: In the cottage belt often the only way to get a quality trail is to groom at night there is just too much traffic during the day. We have seen traffic counts in excess of 1500 sleds in a day on the Seguin You may as well pour the diesel on the ground if you try to groom during the day down here. (speaking from experience) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoso Posted February 25, 2018 Share Posted February 25, 2018 2 hours ago, MXZ41 said: I'm pretty sure they mean the club exec airing dirty laundry on Facebook not this discussion Airing "dirty laundry" on facebook will get some knickers in a knot for sure. Complain about the status quo in any format and many will get upset. Egos at the OFSC provincial level are very fragile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muskoka Man Posted February 25, 2018 Share Posted February 25, 2018 This ones going to go long boys ,lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
revrnd Posted February 25, 2018 Share Posted February 25, 2018 4 hours ago, zoso said: Airing "dirty laundry" on facebook will get some knickers in a knot for sure. Complain about the status quo in any format and many will get upset. Egos at the OFSC provincial level are very fragile. And how constructive is it? If the executive as a whole or as a member EDIT: OF THE CLUB'S EXECUTIVE has an issue w/ the district or OFSC, they shouldn't be yapping about it online to the general public. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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