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ATV’s on OFSC Trails on Crown Land

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43 minutes ago, Running Wild said:

Owning the land under the water probably can happen but possibly only in very limited cases.  Usually if you purchase the 66 ft road allowance you only purchase the land to the water mark . Some of the 66 ft allowance or even all of it can be under water due to flooding by a dam installed after the original survey 100 years ago or whatever.  There is the opinion in some cases that if the water mark changes due to seasonal weather patterns your property water  line moves accordingly.  Have a lawyer and a surveyor check it out for you if you really need to know. I'm not a lawyer and I don't play one on TV.

RW

True. But I have seen a land title for tiny beaches and at the time the plot was lined out to approx 200' beyond the waters edge. Its difficult to translate then to now in terms of how all this went down. How/why/who made all this happen? Couldnt tell ya I wasnt there. I know of one town in Ontario where all the towns acre lots? Were initially purchased for one bottle of Whisky.

Our Chandos lot was 66' which we bought when Bob Rae was offering the frontage up for sale to bring in some much needed bucks. It went to the waters edge which was rock and deep anyways, there was no changing it annually due to water levels that a beach area deals with.

 

 

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I live right on the tiny/wasaga line. One beach we go to is a public beach, only like 100ft wide. Everyone walks along the beach onto I guess private property? It's very confusing because I can walk from allenwood beach in wasaga right to the public beach in tiny township.

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17 hours ago, zoso said:

Much of the waterfront is also crown land or an unopened road allowance. In other words anyone could sit in front of your cottage at the waterfront and not be trespassing.

Much of it or some of it....I hear this regularly. It’s always from someone that doesn’t own any of this kind of property. I OWN the  frontage on my two lake front lots. I know because I did the paperwork. I also OWN the “road” better described as seasonal trail, that travels thru my hunt camp property. I have no problem letting others use this portion of my property. I do get tired of people telling me what their rights are to my property tho...

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1 hour ago, J Feces said:

Much of it or some of it....I hear this regularly. It’s always from someone that doesn’t own any of this kind of property. I OWN the  frontage on my two lake front lots. I know because I did the paperwork. I also OWN the “road” better described as seasonal trail, that travels thru my hunt camp property. I have no problem letting others use this portion of my property. I do get tired of people telling me what their rights are to my property tho...

Nobody here told you what anyone's rights are on your property. However much of the land, perhaps not in the oldest of developed lakefront closer to the GTA, but certainly across the province is a road allowance of 66 feet off the shoreline. I agree there are many private trails/ roads that have been built by property owners on their private lands, but the vast majority of seasonal roads in this province are not on private property and are open to the public year round. I think many have small view of what Ontario is and fail to understand the vastness of our province. BTW is that your real name...lol.

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1 hour ago, zoso said:

Nobody here told you what anyone's rights are on your property. However much of the land, perhaps not in the oldest of developed lakefront closer to the GTA, but certainly across the province is a road allowance of 66 feet off the shoreline. I agree there are many private trails/ roads that have been built by property owners on their private lands, but the vast majority of seasonal roads in this province are not on private property and are open to the public year round. I think many have small view of what Ontario is and fail to understand the vastness of our province. BTW is that your real name...lol.

You are correct. Much of the lakefront land sold across the province had a 66foot reservation along the shoreline when it was originally surveyed and purchased & Patented. However, the point being made is that MANY of those reserves have been sold to the cottage lot owner, and are no longer Crown land. 

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1 hour ago, zoso said:

Nobody here told you what anyone's rights are on your property. However much of the land, perhaps not in the oldest of developed lakefront closer to the GTA, but certainly across the province is a road allowance of 66 feet off the shoreline. I agree there are many private trails/ roads that have been built by property owners on their private lands, but the vast majority of seasonal roads in this province are not on private property and are open to the public year round. I think many have small view of what Ontario is and fail to understand the vastness of our province. BTW is that your real name...lol.

9 minutes ago, Bucking Pig said:

You are correct. Much of the lakefront land sold across the province had a 66foot reservation along the shoreline when it was originally surveyed and purchased & Patented. However, the point being made is that MANY of those reserves have been sold to the cottage lot owner, and are no longer Crown land. 

Yep that was the point...no idea about lakefront closer to GTA. Not my thing. Thanks for the geography lesson Z. Ya that’s my real name....right. I’m out. 

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6 hours ago, Poo Man said:

I live right on the tiny/wasaga line. One beach we go to is a public beach, only like 100ft wide. Everyone walks along the beach onto I guess private property? It's very confusing because I can walk from allenwood beach in wasaga right to the public beach in tiny township.

 

100% correct.

 

 

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2 hours ago, Bucking Pig said:

You are correct. Much of the lakefront land sold across the province had a 66foot reservation along the shoreline when it was originally surveyed and purchased & Patented. However, the point being made is that MANY of those reserves have been sold to the cottage lot owner, and are no longer Crown land. 

I never said anything to the contrary.

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11 hours ago, Bucking Pig said:

You are correct. Much of the lakefront land sold across the province had a 66foot reservation along the shoreline when it was originally surveyed and purchased & Patented. However, the point being made is that MANY of those reserves have been sold to the cottage lot owner, and are no longer Crown land. 

As well some townships like Christie seem to not have the road allowance at least on Horseshoe lake perhaps on others as well

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Some lakes but not all have a R/A & sometimes a crown reserve.  Sometimes only some of the lots on the lake.  One of the reasons for a R/A was was to give river drivers a place to work and tie their log booms up. Getting a way OT here.

RW

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I did some research including into the validity of d10s lup on our trails zoso you really do not know what you are talking about we look forward to charging those that follow your advice and convicting them 

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d10 has LUP's for crown land the trails run on? Ski

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2 hours ago, skidooboy said:

d10 has LUP's for crown land the trails run on? Ski

Not on any general use crown land, that is for sure.

 

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21 hours ago, Wildbill said:

I did some research including into the validity of d10s lup on our trails zoso you really do not know what you are talking about we look forward to charging those that follow your advice and convicting them 

OPP are not laying any charges on general use crown land, and being you or any other club members do not have any authority to lay a charge, I cannot see it happening.

Edited by zoso
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4 hours ago, zoso said:

OPP are not laying any charges on general use crown land, and being you or any other club members do not have any authority to lay a charge, I cannot see it happening.

see you there. You are loud and stubborn but you are wrong 

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Algonquin Land Claim and the Williams Treaty being contested should be two of prime interest to landowners in south/central and eastern Ontario.

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19 hours ago, Wildbill said:

see you there. You are loud and stubborn but you are wrong 

Good luck trying to enforce a  non existent law.

 

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5 hours ago, zoso said:

Good luck trying to enforce a  non existent law.

 

See you there if indeed you freeload 

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4 minutes ago, Wildbill said:

See you there if indeed you freeload 

When I was in hornepayne. There were two guys heading out on atv's going down snowmobile trail. They told me it is crown land and they use trail to access the lake so they can go fishing. Nice guys and trail was hard so they weren't doing allot of damage, thankfully. Never seen a cop any where around that area ever. Seems like these two guys do this often and I am sure with atv sport growing again more will be out riding trails with a tackle box and rod hanging off the back. 

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Bottom line, trespassing whether it be snowmobile or ATV on private property or Crown land is an increasing problem. Particularly with the promotion of off trail riding in media in recent years. MNR in Muskoka has assigned an individual whose focus is to get and keep ATV's off of Crown land that is designated as a reserve. The number of these are growing.

 

One example of trespass where riders have remove locked gates and ignored the concrete blocks showing PRIVATE - NO TRESPASSING.

 

http://www.seaforthhuronexpositor.com/2009/05/20/landowners-worried-that-constant-trespassing-will-result-in-injury-for-atvers-and-snowmobiliers

 

The Baynhams have increased their efforts to prevent trespassing since hearing about a case in Northern Ontario where a gravel pit owner was found liable after some kids trespassed on the property, dug some caves in the hills and died when the caves collapsed on them.

"The landowner was sued for millions, for everything he had. We're trying to prevent disaster - we would not be happy to know someone died or broke a leg on our property," she says.

Gene says she's afraid to walk on her own property since when she was walking the ridge of the second gravel pit north of Highway 8 recently, an ATV came flying over the ridge and over her head.

"You take your life in your hands," she says.

She's also worried about the fact that people have made themselves at home in the bush on her property, holding bush parties, lighting bonfires and building forts.

 

We have a LUP in place with the MNR which states the trail is only open for snowmobiles between specific dates. We have gates, put up concrete barriers and rocks in compliance with the MNR requirements. There is plenty of signage yet it is all ignored. Trespassers have removed the concrete barriers, gates etc.

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All comes down to enforcement. No enforcement people can do what ever they desire, which makes it more dangerous for other users as well. We get asked all the time if it is ok to hunt on our property. Everyone wants to shoot down our wild turkeys at back of property it seems. 

Two years ago, the land owner next door gave Permission to hunt on his property.  We just happened to be spreading manure that week and which scared all turkeys away. We were confronted about that too by upset hunters. What do you expect in farm country. 

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13 minutes ago, Viperules700 said:

All comes down to enforcement. No enforcement people can do what ever they desire, which makes it more dangerous for other users as well. We get asked all the time if it is ok to hunt on our property. Everyone wants to shoot down our wild turkeys at back of property it seems. 

Two years ago, the land owner next door gave Permission to hunt on his property.  We just happened to be spreading manure that week and which scared all turkeys away. We were confronted about that too by upset hunters. What do you expect in farm country. 

My father-in-law has wild turkey and deer on his 15 acres in Caledon. He has occasionally had hunters do the right thing and ask if they can hunt his property. It isn't a farm. It is simply his residence and it is more park like than anything. He tells them no and they seem to accept that. There are others however that don't even bother to ask. He has taken down countless tree stands and torn apart camouflage blinds. He's even scooped a few of those camouflage tents that people have set up to hunt from.

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23 hours ago, Faceman said:

Algonquin Land Claim and the Williams Treaty being contested should be two of prime interest to landowners in south/central and eastern Ontario.

The renegotiation of those two treaties will have minimal impact on the residents of south/central and eastern Ontario.

The renegotiation is about compensation and not about taking over of private land. Now there maybe some crown land that will fall under FN management (Prov parks, etc). but no privately held land will be confiscated or appropriated. 

 

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3 hours ago, Viperules700 said:

All comes down to enforcement. No enforcement people can do what ever they desire,....

Respectfully, this issue (ATVs or other motorized vehicles) travelling on OFSC designated trails on general use Crown Land appears not to be about enforcement but rather whether MNRF agreees that motorized vehicles can indeed travel on general use Crown Land which is being utilized as an OFSC designated trail.

 

There are possibly 2 categories, One on general use Crown Land where the OFSC has a Land Use Agreement and second where the OFSC has no LUP.

 

Depending on the individual terms of the MNRF’s Land Use Agreement with individual Clubs, that doesn’t necessarily mean that OFSC permitted snowmobiles have exclusive use and in fact other unorganized and individually owned motorized vehicles may have an equal right to use.

 

The other factor is Forestry Access Roads which are on Crown Lands which have been paid for by the Crown/taxpayers.  In these situations, I think it even less likely that other vehicles can be prohibited during the snowmobile season.

 

Obviously this is a very serious issue which needs to be clarified at the highest levels.

 

Being that this undoubtedly a very hot political potato I have my doubts as to whether we will see any satisfactory resolution.

 

Hopefully Wild Bill and others can convince the OPP and Crown Attorney to lay charges and establish a precedent for others.

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