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An Overused Safety Message?


revrnd

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During the coverage of the Bobcaygeon drowning, the OPP issued their usual warning, "No ice is safe ice". In some ways I think this is a ridiculous statement. The clubs check the ice before staking trails, so is this ice unsafe too?

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The qualifier for clubs is "At the time the lake was staked the ice was deemed to be safe" I personally would go with ice is never safe

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42 minutes ago, revrnd said:

During the coverage of the Bobcaygeon drowning, the OPP issued their usual warning, "No ice is safe ice". In some ways I think this is a ridiculous statement. The clubs check the ice before staking trails, so is this ice unsafe too?

Can be... the clubs stake based on ice thickness. Doesn't mean you won't see a pressure crack pop up or after the lake has been staked the weight of ice and snow pushes down into the lake, water comes up through the cracks and you have a huge amount of slush. I have seen some of the aftermath of a pressure crack accident. Sled hit a pressure crack from the side that rather than set the sled airborne stopped it dead in it's tracks. The skis were all twisted, the bumper and belly all smashed and the windshield snapped off. Presumably from the rider being launched through it. A bit of blood evident on the snow.

 

I think what they are saying is that the conditions can change so rapidly, even in a day or two that you can't just assume it is safe,

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5 minutes ago, 02Sled said:

Can be... the clubs stake based on ice thickness. Doesn't mean you won't see a pressure crack pop up or after the lake has been staked the weight of ice and snow pushes down into the lake, water comes up through the cracks and you have a huge amount of slush. I have seen some of the aftermath of a pressure crack accident. Sled hit a pressure crack from the side that rather than set the sled airborne stopped it dead in it's tracks. The skis were all twisted, the bumper and belly all smashed and the windshield snapped off. Presumably from the rider being launched through it. A bit of blood evident on the snow.

 

I think what they are saying is that the conditions can change so rapidly, even in a day or two that you can't just assume it is safe,

I see where you're coming from on the pressure ridges. There is a spot on Chandos where 1 can develop. A guy my age got busted up pretty good on Anstruther back in the 80s hitting 1. Anstruther you have to watch out for near 1 inlet (open water) where there have been drownings from people travelling @ night not paying attention. These incidents happened when the rest of the ice was safe.

 

Around here unless the weather takes drastic swings (like the last few seasons) the ice is good until the spring.

 

IMO, the No ice is safe ice is a very bad generalization. Driving thru thin ice is completely different than driving into open water where there is no ice even during the coldest winters.

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10 minutes ago, Poo Man said:

I fully agree. I like the "if you don't know, don't go" approach a lot better.

Or check before you go.

 

 

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7 minutes ago, revrnd said:

Or check before you go.

Is that where you send your disposable friend ahead of you and if he makes it across you can follow. :D

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6 minutes ago, 02Sled said:

Is that where you send your disposable friend ahead of you and if he makes it across you can follow. :D

Or fatter haha

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Why not just go slow so there is time to stop.  Lots of cracks on Nippising to watch for.  Just watch.

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16 minutes ago, Big Pussy said:

Why not just go slow so there is time to stop.  Lots of cracks on Nippising to watch for.  Just watch.

How slow would you suggest is safe. Often you just don't see them until it's simply too late at almost any speed. Especially when they stick up less than a foot. White on white and lighting conditions. Virtually any speed is going to be a hazard when your sled goes from X km/hr to a dead stop instantly. Or if you hit it the better of the two ways unexpectedly.

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I would suggest 5 kph.  You have to get over the cracks if you stay on Lakeshore.  My eyes are not that bad yet even though I use bifocals.

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22 minutes ago, 02Sled said:

How slow would you suggest is safe. Often you just don't see them until it's simply too late at almost any speed. Especially when they stick up less than a foot. White on white and lighting conditions. Virtually any speed is going to be a hazard when your sled goes from X km/hr to a dead stop instantly. Or if you hit it the better of the two ways unexpectedly.

Especially if you hit the 'wrong' side of the ridge.

 

I'm not saying that we shouldn't be careful when riding regardless of if we're on the ice, but a blanket statement repeated over & over, gets ignored after a while.

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16 minutes ago, 02Sled said:

How slow would you suggest is safe. Often you just don't see them until it's simply too late at almost any speed. Especially when they stick up less than a foot. White on white and lighting conditions. Virtually any speed is going to be a hazard when your sled goes from X km/hr to a dead stop instantly. Or if you hit it the better of the two ways unexpectedly.

02, your obvious dislike for ice riding has been quite evident for a long time. Reality is that we ride ice and that it is part of our sport along with washouts and all the other dangers that we face on the trails. The best we can do is be careful and vigilant when we are riding anywhere on ice or not. If you choose not to ride on ice that's your decision but please stop sounding like my mother in law.

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5 minutes ago, Big Pussy said:

I would suggest 5 kph.  You have to get over the cracks if you stay on Lakeshore.  My eyes are not that bad yet even though I use bifocals.

Same here.

 

Mind you I was on LOB late 1 afternoon & we struggled w/ the light. We couldn't see the stakes since they were white/grey & the reflective tape was white. Our headlights wouldn't reflect off the tape. 

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6 minutes ago, PISTON LAKE CRUISER said:

02, your obvious dislike for ice riding has been quite evident for a long time. Reality is that we ride ice and that it is part of our sport along with washouts and all the other dangers that we face on the trails. The best we can do is be careful and vigilant when we are riding anywhere on ice or not. If you choose not to ride on ice that's your decision but please stop sounding like my mother in law.

Yes. Experience in all conditions is a great learning experience. 

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as with everything else knowledge is best when dealing with Ice I asked a lot of the locals around stonecliffe that had already been out on the inland lakes fishing around there most were reporting 20" or more ice but to stay off any of the moving streams as they had 4" or less. Lake Riding around here is pretty normal and it's a whole pile of common sense and usually one guy with a ice auger or chain saw that easily tell you what's what.

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29 minutes ago, PISTON LAKE CRUISER said:

02, your obvious dislike for ice riding has been quite evident for a long time. Reality is that we ride ice and that it is part of our sport along with washouts and all the other dangers that we face on the trails. The best we can do is be careful and vigilant when we are riding anywhere on ice or not. If you choose not to ride on ice that's your decision but please stop sounding like my mother in law.

I don't dislike ice riding by any stretch of the imagination. I have been on the ice of Georgian Bay and local lakes regularly for as long as I have been riding. I just have a very healthy respect for the hazards and risks. It's simple "if I don't know I don't go". Taking unnecessary risks is just that unnecessary.

 

For example I wouldn't be stupid enough like one idiot was a few years ago when he ran the ice along side the ice breaker coming into Midland Harbour and if I'm not mistaken crossed in front of its' path.

 

Are you suggesting that you would make the assumption that because you see tracks on the ice it MUST be safe?

 

On the bold... very true.

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I 'm pretty sure I know the man who hit that crack your speaking of. I had a cottage on Chandos back then. Story goes they went out for a night ride and went down the lake. Coming back the temp had dropped approx 3hrs later and they were on a 440 liquid cooled cat pretty much to the bars and drove dead straight on into a black ice very high pressure crack on the way home, that wasn't there on the way out. It tore the driver up pretty bad, he was never the same again but his wife on the back of sled smashed into the crack and she suffered the worst of it. Mangled arms for life as a result.

 

As for the ice conditions? Floater suits with proper wool ( merino ) long johns are essential for lake riders as well as practicing moving in the water. I had a place on the Pickerel river for many years which has all sorts of current and open water areas regardless of temps. We lost the groomer through a few times and pulled a lot of sleds out back then. One summer I put my entire snowmobile atire on and jumped in the lake to see whats what and see if I could swim. Its impossible imo to even hope to swim with a full suit and helmet on, until you learn to kick your boots off. Minus the boots you can sort of move, but its slow going and difficult so long as your a capable swimmer you have hope but time is of the essence. The temperature is what gets you. We also practiced polar bear dip swims the day the ice would break up etc to see how long we could function in the freezing temp water without the suit. A fit, healthy adult I'd give five to ten minutes and your done. Not dead, but done form getting yourself out, you will need someone else to rescue you after five- ten mins in the frigid water. The first two mins you can function pretty decently aside from finger grip rapidly declining your limbs will work fine. Thats a lot of time to sort yourself out if you keep your head together and dont panic.

 

Keep ice picks around your neck, kick your boots off, wear a flotation suit, dont ride alone. All those helped us from losing anyone out of our crew

 

Strange lakes or strange waters at night? I will ride the marked trail ONLY and even then with tense nerves. In daylight you can sort of see whats going on and with local information? You should be able to decifer the dangerous places and learn the conditions etc. Definitely a big risk to go riding on lakes at night without proper prep

 

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, 02Sled said:

I don't dislike ice riding by any stretch of the imagination. I have been on the ice of Georgian Bay and local lakes regularly for as long as I have been riding. I just have a very healthy respect for the hazards and risks. It's simple "if I don't know I don't go". Taking unnecessary risks is just that unnecessary.

 

For example I wouldn't be stupid enough like one idiot was a few years ago when he ran the ice along side the ice breaker coming into Midland Harbour and if I'm not mistaken crossed in front of its' path.

 

Are you suggesting that you would make the assumption that because you see tracks on the ice it MUST be safe?

 

On the bold... very true.

Not suggesting anything regarding tracks. The decision to go or not go is each riders own and they shouldn't be coerced. I just believe that the vast majority of people on this forum are already knowledgeable regarding  what to do and not to do when ice riding is concerned. 

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21 minutes ago, PISTON LAKE CRUISER said:

Not suggesting anything regarding tracks. The decision to go or not go is each riders own and they shouldn't be coerced. I just believe that the vast majority of people on this forum are already knowledgeable regarding  what to do and not to do when ice riding is concerned. 

The OPP message is one that is standardized for all riders, new and experienced. Some experienced may actually not be familiar with ice as well. They don't deliver one message for OC members another for experienced riders and another for new riders. It was on the news that this has been a record setting year for snowmobile deaths just a few minutes ago. It would seem a large portion of those were people riding on and going through ice. It seems too many people still need education regarding riding on ice.

 

I like what Crispy was saying about trying your suit in the water during the summer so you get a sense of what you're facing even though you don't have the cold to contend with. I wear a floater suit and have ice picks as well. My helmet has a seat belt type chin strap that can be released quickly rather than one where the nylon strap weaves through the 2 metal rings.

 

A few years ago our club had an open house and there were a group there talking about what happens when you go through the ice and into the water. I don't recall the name of the group but they go around making presentations. One of the things I remember is them commenting on one of the real dangers is the gasp reflex where as you go into the water you will have a sudden large gasp and possibly pull in a large volume of water.

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4 hours ago, 02Sled said:

A few years ago our club had an open house and there were a group there talking about what happens when you go through the ice and into the water. I don't recall the name of the group but they go around making presentations. One of the things I remember is them commenting on one of the real dangers is the gasp reflex where as you go into the water you will have a sudden large gasp and possibly pull in a large volume of water.

It was Coldwater bootcamp.

 

http://www.coldwaterbootcamp.com/pages/home.html

 

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Something else I didnt mention. In the summer jump in the lake with cotton sweat pants and cotton sweat shirt and see what happens. Like strapping on bricks you sink so fast so killer cotton applies to falling in the drink as well as the soaking up sweat old school warnings. We wear a lot of fleece toppers now, I havent tried swimming with those yet.

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8 hours ago, BruteMan said:

as with everything else knowledge is best when dealing with Ice I asked a lot of the locals around stonecliffe that had already been out on the inland lakes fishing around there most were reporting 20" or more ice but to stay off any of the moving streams as they had 4" or less. Lake Riding around here is pretty normal and it's a whole pile of common sense and usually one guy with a ice auger or chain saw that easily tell you what's what.

Locals advice, experience on the body of water, and caution all go a long way. I prefer the stake line, but have often ridden many remote lakes where no tracks are present, this is when past experience plays a big role in deciding if it is going to be safe.

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