bbakernbay Posted January 9, 2018 Share Posted January 9, 2018 Copied from Lake of Bays ATV Club. Zoom in on the coloured Legend of use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbakernbay Posted January 9, 2018 Share Posted January 9, 2018 22 hours ago, zoso said: The best way to stop them is to locate the landowners where it runs on the private properties which is the entire northern area of their map, and ask if they have been given a copy of the liability insurance which cproper insurance.overs them. Then point out that they will be sued when an accident happens on their land. I do not think they have I wonder if they carry $15,000,000 liability insurance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
extreme600 Posted January 9, 2018 Share Posted January 9, 2018 12 minutes ago, bbakernbay said: I wonder if they carry $15,000,000 liability insurance. Good post Mr. Baker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PISTON LAKE CRUISER Posted January 9, 2018 Share Posted January 9, 2018 30 minutes ago, bbakernbay said: I wonder if they carry $15,000,000 liability insurance. I'm going to play devil's advocate here. What if an atv'r gets hurt on an OFSC groomed Crown Land trail and sues the OFSC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Sledder Posted January 9, 2018 Author Share Posted January 9, 2018 1 hour ago, bbakernbay said: Suggest you correct the post heading as it appears it may indeed be Lake of Bays ATV Facebook page, not Baysville ATV Club. Sounds like they are the same group using two names. Yes, I tried but cannot from an iPad, unless an admin can fix the headline Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoso Posted January 9, 2018 Share Posted January 9, 2018 1 hour ago, PISTON LAKE CRUISER said: I'm going to play devil's advocate here. What if an atv'r gets hurt on an OFSC groomed Crown Land trail and sues the OFSC. Now that the ofsc has zero prescribed trails on crown land and can no longer enforce the permit on crown land, the trails in northern ontario can be ridden for free. As soon as everyone realizes this, the entire system is in jeopardy. The OFSC must act now and get this resolved. What has any club heard about this from them....NOTHING! Basically it is now in winter as it is in summer, if you can run a motorized vehicle on crown land you can do so any time if there is a groomed trail or not. This ATV club is not breaking any laws, and that is the problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoso Posted January 9, 2018 Share Posted January 9, 2018 2 hours ago, bbakernbay said: I wonder if they carry $15,000,000 liability insurance. No, they have directors insurance for the board of their non profit corp, and that is it. Any landowner that allows them to run across their property is in danger of being sued with no insurance to cover them other than what they may have bought themselves and may even have no insurance at all if the land is not developed. They have a waiver of liability and that is it, and we all know they are useless in court when the chips are down. These trails they have set up are crossing private property in the northern section close to dorset, and are on crown land on the southern 2/3rds. When these guys are telling people it is ok to use ofsc groomed trails if they are on crown land, then where do they get off selling a permit to ride those same crown land trails? Seems like they have contradicted themselves and it is actually true. they cannot enforce a permit on crown land winter or summer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nith Valley Sledder Posted January 9, 2018 Share Posted January 9, 2018 9 minutes ago, zoso said: Now that the ofsc has zero prescribed trails on crown land and can no longer enforce the permit on crown land, the trails in northern ontario can be ridden for free. As soon as everyone realizes this, the entire system is in jeopardy. The OFSC must act now and get this resolved. What has any club heard about this from them....NOTHING! Basically it is now in winter as it is in summer, if you can run a motorized vehicle on crown land you can do so any time if there is a groomed trail or not. This ATV club is not breaking any laws, and that is the problem. Just how much power do you think the ofsc has! They are dealing with a provincial government that doesn't seem to care. Don't expect things to get fixed anytime soon. It is out of our hands. All the exec can do is ask. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoso Posted January 9, 2018 Share Posted January 9, 2018 6 minutes ago, Nith Valley Sledder said: Just how much power do you think the ofsc has! They are dealing with a provincial government that doesn't seem to care. Don't expect things to get fixed anytime soon. It is out of our hands. All the exec can do is ask. They have the power to alert clubs as to the change that took place long ago, and to keep clubs up to date on whm they are talking with to resolve this issue, what they see as any progress made, what clubs can do to help. Have you seen any action, or just crickets? Which minister has this file, what is his contact, we should be seeing this info being distributed to all permit buyers and they should be encouraged to contact said minister with their concerns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbakernbay Posted January 9, 2018 Share Posted January 9, 2018 I thought that the MSVA required that a valid OFSC Trail Permit be properly displayed when a motorized snow vehicle is operated on a prescribed OFSC trail, regardless as to whether the trail is on private property or Crown Land. Of course, ATV’s are not “motorized snow vehicles” so it appears they cannot be charged if the OFSC hasn’t been given exclusive use authority on Crown Lands. As zoos states, this has very serious implications, particularly north of Highway 17. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nith Valley Sledder Posted January 9, 2018 Share Posted January 9, 2018 I'm in the south so this isn't an issue down here as everything is private property. I expect the mid to northern clubs have more of a vested interest in this issue. Their governors should be keeping the club's up to speed on what is being done to correct the problem. The club's should be all over their governors if they are hav8ng issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoso Posted January 9, 2018 Share Posted January 9, 2018 11 minutes ago, bbakernbay said: I thought that the MSVA required that a valid OFSC Trail Permit be properly displayed when a motorized snow vehicle is operated on a prescribed OFSC trail, regardless as to whether the trail is on private property or Crown Land. Of course, ATV’s are not “motorized snow vehicles” so it appears they cannot be charged if the OFSC hasn’t been given exclusive use authority on Crown Lands. As zoos states, this has very serious implications, particularly north of Highway 17. It did, that is until the OFSC no longer gets an occupation permit for exclusive use of the crown land the trails pass over. Now it is just any old crown land that just happens to be groomed by a 300k dollar machine burning thousands in diesel. You cannot enforce the trespass act if you no longer have any more rights to be on that land than any other person that desires to be there. It has now made crown land just like an unplowed road in the winter. Right now the OFSC permit can ONLY be enforced on private property. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoso Posted January 9, 2018 Share Posted January 9, 2018 16 minutes ago, Nith Valley Sledder said: I'm in the south so this isn't an issue down here as everything is private property. I expect the mid to northern clubs have more of a vested interest in this issue. Their governors should be keeping the club's up to speed on what is being done to correct the problem. The club's should be all over their governors if they are hav8ng issues. This is new, and this was not in the media. The change was simply made with no real warning. This concerns us all as we are all in it together. I too now live in the south and ride exclusively on private land unless I tour. What I would hate to see is the trails in the north die due to people no longer buying in because they will eventually learn they do not have to. The main reason bill 101 was accepted by the clubs was so the permit could be enforced, and now with government turning their backs on the clubs using crown land we are going to see a progressive decline in northern trails as quads and sleds ride without a care or paying in. The problem is real, the problem affects us all, and there is not a peep out of the OFSC in regards to the work being done to resolve it. This is their issue alone, the clubs never signed the land use agreement with the crown, only the ofsc did so as a blanket agreement. there is nothing a club or district can do other than to rally the members to lobby government Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Pete Posted January 9, 2018 Share Posted January 9, 2018 Surely the OFSC has some influence with the provincial govt. Were the Top Trails not designated as Trails of Distinction by the Tourism Ministry? What if a call was placed to the Minister to the effect we want exclusive right to our groomed trails on crown land. Not the whole logging road but say a 15-20 ft groomed section. In the bush it would be the staked trail. We could be urging the minister to require an occupancy agreement for any organization that is selling a “permit” to access a trail on crown land. The occupancy permit would allow the organization to enforce its trail rights. Whether they be snowmobilers, ATVers, 4X4 trucks. The problem seems to have stemmed from a change change at MNRF whereby they do not enter into LUPs anymore. So is there some leverage to be had via the Tourism Ministry. Have we even approached them? it appears our illustrious Premier has Ministry working against one another. Surely there is some common ground to keep everybody somewhat happy both at the local and provincial level. But if nobody is lobbying then the situation just gets worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruteMan Posted January 9, 2018 Share Posted January 9, 2018 Well if a trucker gets a ticket for trespassing by going on trails by mistake up north you'd think OPP would have to step in here as well if enough complaints are filed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Pete Posted January 9, 2018 Share Posted January 9, 2018 Have been doing some background reading on the MSVA and the Public Lands Act. The MSVA stipulates that a permit is required on a "Prescribed Trail". And there is a regulation on what constitutes a prescribed trail (signage etc). The Minister of Transportation can designate a trail as a prescribed trail even if it is on crown land. So does this override the Public Lands Act? The Public Lands Act (administered by MNRF) allows for land use permits. From the Public Lands Act: Subject to any terms and conditions that are consistent with the Act and the regulations, (a) a district manager or his or her delegate may issue, in respect of public lands in the administrative district administered by the manager, a land use permit permitting the holder to occupy the public lands described in the permit for the purposes stated in it; (b) the Manager, Land Management Section, may issue, in respect of public lands situated in two or more administrative districts, a land use permit permitting the holder to occupy the public lands described in the permit for the purposes stated in it. O. Reg. 417/07, s. 1. 2. A land use permit shall be in the form furnished by the Ministry. R.R.O. 1990, Reg. 973, s. 2. So how did the problem of not issuing a land use permit get started? Was this some low level bureaucrat making an arbitrary decision? Have this ever been escalated to the Ministerial level? I would think there is ample argument for a land use permit for a "Prescribed Trail". The more I look at this, the more contradictions I seem to run into. It would appear that there is very little coordination between the Ministry of Transportation, Ministry of Tourism and the Ministry of Natural Resources and Forests. And the solution certainly does not lie with a local club or district. This situation needs a provincial voice at Queens Park. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slomo Posted January 9, 2018 Share Posted January 9, 2018 In addition, the whole issue is a conflict of interest with supertrax magazine, the now marketing company of the OFSC trail riding system, who have been pushing for their off trail riding. Don't see anything from Craig Nicholson, communications person, either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildbill Posted January 9, 2018 Share Posted January 9, 2018 8 hours ago, zoso said: It did, that is until the OFSC no longer gets an occupation permit for exclusive use of the crown land the trails pass over. Now it is just any old crown land that just happens to be groomed by a 300k dollar machine burning thousands in diesel. You cannot enforce the trespass act if you no longer have any more rights to be on that land than any other person that desires to be there. It has now made crown land just like an unplowed road in the winter. Right now the OFSC permit can ONLY be enforced on private property. and bridges we own the bridges Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matt17 Posted January 9, 2018 Share Posted January 9, 2018 With regards to the Crown Land access as I have mentioned in other threads up here the MNR has no issue with limiting travel on crown land roads with respect to roads accessing or near designated remote tourism lakes (Fly-in Fishing lakes) Their COs enforce this quite strictly. One lake I fish in the winter I have to go 10km down a power line to access and cross a sometimes maintained plowed road within 400m of the lake but that road is off limits for access this particular lake. However I do not see this as being a huge issue in the far north. Locally we have very few riders that ride long distance and those that use the trails to access the backcountry have been sold on the benefits of having the local club and trails and as such they purchase a permit despite the widely known fact that there has been no enforcement of permits in our immediate vicinity in the past 2-3 years. I cannot speak for other communities but we have has some success through explaining the benefits of the permit and supporting the club vs the adversarial "Were you riding on the trail, Where's your permit" as the first sentence when approaching a local sled filling up with gas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yamaha Fan Posted January 9, 2018 Share Posted January 9, 2018 13 hours ago, bbakernbay said: Copied from Lake of Bays ATV Club. Zoom in on the coloured Legend of use. I would have thought that our $260 bucks would have more clout than their $50 bucks. As in Quebec... it might be time to have ATV winter trails along snowmobile trails. Red Markers for snowmobile and Blue Markers for ATV's. It's only a matter of time as the seed is sown. Snowmobilers may even see a reduction of fees. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diceman Posted January 9, 2018 Share Posted January 9, 2018 14 hours ago, bbakernbay said: Might be time for a few spike mats placed in some strategic locations. One of my biggest beefs is that OFSC and Club $$$ Are being used to fund many bridges and culverts on Crown Land and the ATV and AWD Freeloaders use and abuse them without contributing a dime let alone all the Volunteer time and effort to build and maintain these essential water crossings. thats not true....I am sure there are some areas like that but in eastern ontario local atv clubs but huge money and time into maintaining and fixing bridges, trails, etc..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy JR Posted January 9, 2018 Share Posted January 9, 2018 One thing that I never felt was fair was the government giving rights to crown land to a particular user group. That includes the OFSC and the remote lake fly in camp operators. Crown land should have always been available to be used by anyone. I realize this will be un popular opinion to almost everyone on here but its the way I feel. Make it equal access to everyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
02Sled Posted January 9, 2018 Share Posted January 9, 2018 12 hours ago, zoso said: Now that the ofsc has zero prescribed trails on crown land and can no longer enforce the permit on crown land, the trails in northern ontario can be ridden for free. As soon as everyone realizes this, the entire system is in jeopardy. The OFSC must act now and get this resolved. What has any club heard about this from them....NOTHING! Basically it is now in winter as it is in summer, if you can run a motorized vehicle on crown land you can do so any time if there is a groomed trail or not. This ATV club is not breaking any laws, and that is the problem. Not necessarily. Not all crown land is open to ATV use. There is a huge amount of crown land in the Muskoka area that is off limits to ATV's regardless whether it's summer or winter. They are designated as Provincial Conservation Reserves. There is a person with the MNR who is actively working to keep ATV's out of these areas. His contact information was provided to the Muskoka snowmobile clubs. The local snowmobile club president would have the contact information for and has access to the MNR representative who is responsible for keeping ATVs off the Conservation Reserves. 12 hours ago, Nith Valley Sledder said: Just how much power do you think the ofsc has! They are dealing with a provincial government that doesn't seem to care. Don't expect things to get fixed anytime soon. It is out of our hands. All the exec can do is ask. The MNR does care. The above mentioned MNR person is working with snowmobile clubs and has recently made a presentation to Muskoka snowmobile club representatives. As for ATV clubs not contributing to the trails that's an incorrect statement as it doesn't apply to ALL ATV clubs. I am sure that is the case in some areas but definitely not all. We work in partnership very well with our local ATV club sharing a common interest. The ATV club has over the years given us a significant amount of cash toward trail improvement projects, some of their volunteer members have provided labour and one of their members it seems really enjoys getting out and donating his time with his heavy equipment to improve the trails. Not all ATV / snowmobile club relationships are adversarial and they don't need to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
02Sled Posted January 9, 2018 Share Posted January 9, 2018 22 minutes ago, Guy JR said: One thing that I never felt was fair was the government giving rights to crown land to a particular user group. That includes the OFSC and the remote lake fly in camp operators. Crown land should have always been available to be used by anyone. I realize this will be un popular opinion to almost everyone on here but its the way I feel. Make it equal access to everyone. One of the reasons that the MNR restricts use of crown land is the impact that use may or does have on the land. Typically they will support snowmobile use as their is very little impact to the terrain when the ground is frozen. The ATV's on the other hand can have a much more profound impact. There is a segment of ATV riders who will intentionally block up drainage culverts to stop the water flow and provide mud for them to play in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbakernbay Posted January 9, 2018 Share Posted January 9, 2018 1 hour ago, Diceman said: thats not true....I am sure there are some areas like that but in eastern ontario local atv clubs but huge money and time into maintaining and fixing bridges, trails, etc..... You are right that in some areas the ATV Clubs are quite active and well organized and do initiate or contribute to trail improvement work, including the VMUTS Club in Mattawa, east of North Bay. I would be interested to know what percentage of ATVers that use public trails actually contribute to their upkeep and improvement by way of being a paid member of an active ATV Club? My guess is less than 10% but I will do some research on the Ontario ATV website. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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