zoso Posted December 29, 2017 Share Posted December 29, 2017 -28 overnight and -20 during the day for another week at least here in southeastern Ontario. That with more snow coming and everything in the south should be opening up very very soon. This is turning into a great start right across the entire province. Do not be surprised when the grooming money dries up fast as all clubs start grooming and money is already tight. i am sure we will see shortfalls right across the province this season as it looks as if we will see the majority of they system being opened this season and staying open for a good long time. it has been years since we have seen this type of cold and snow right across the province and even longer since it has come so early. Next year will be a huge challenge for clubs and those not raising funds outside the permits will be really strapped for cash. I would say we have to see a substantial increase in pricing, at least up to 225 for the early early. this will be the time to do it, a time when we all got to ride local for a decent number of weeks. While nobody wants to pay more, it is way past due that we pay what it costs to have a system capable of running full tilt and becoming financially sound and able to keep the fleet modern. personally 35 bucks more would not be very upsetting, gas has gone up from 65 cents per liter to 1.30 over the past ten years, and diesel has moved the saqme. The status quo cannot be continued unless we are ready to accept far less grooming and rough trails. i suggest a poll sent out to all permit holders asking them this one simple question. Do you want grooming once every two weeks, or would you pay 35 more to have grooming at current levels or better? Lets find out where people stand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theedge Posted December 29, 2017 Share Posted December 29, 2017 I'm sure most would be ok with more if the money did indeed go towards grooming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruteMan Posted December 29, 2017 Share Posted December 29, 2017 I could just as easily ask the same question about the last 5 years for clubs that never even opened a trail or opened for less than 2 weeks... what did you do with your grooming funds why didn't you save them in the event you get a year like this one. your statement while at the time from this point forward makes sense but you do know you've been paying that same price if you have renewed every year for the last 5 to not ride locally and never asked where the funds were spent if not on grooming? you can't say on new groomers as OFSC has clearly stated that they pay for the equipment (the 80%) and the clubs get 20% for running costs. then tack on the fundraising and deduct the back room deals. I don't think this is the appropriate point in time to get on the ra-ra wagon just yet lets see what the season truly pans out to be and where the clubs actually spend the money right now i know of 4 clubs with good snow not even packing right now. is this to save funds for after the next snowfall possibly no one knows cause they are just black holes and do not report. It is still very much a clique system of clubs and if your not in the clique then your left in the dark, The clubs do what the clubs do and you as a rider are subject to their whims regardless of what you pay for a permit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Pete Posted December 29, 2017 Share Posted December 29, 2017 Zoos, don’t forget that the 2018-2019 permit pricing has already been approved at last AGM. The earliest we could get a substantial increase approved by the membership is 2019-2020. I would concur with your assessment that the system will run out of money should the entire province have a great year. I would not be surprised to see the grooming rate reduced from the $58/hr to somewhere in the range of $40-45/ hr. The only saving grace is there is a $750k EQ reserve to offset any shortfall. Bruteman, you forget that the FFC equalization model has been in place for 3 seasons now so clubs that were not grooming did not receive grooming funds. And with the reduction of up front permit sales from 30% to 10% there are no clubs banking large reserves anymore. Granted there are still some clubs with reserves but if we have a good season they will dipping into those reserves to fund their operating costs (as it should be). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Pussy Posted December 30, 2017 Share Posted December 30, 2017 So where did the OFSC blow the grooming money. D5 sure didn't spend it the last two years. D9 did not do much either. A lot of passes should have came from D5 and D9. I don't want to see a hand in pocket because of funds pissed away. Must be run like the province. BP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Pete Posted December 30, 2017 Share Posted December 30, 2017 31 minutes ago, Big Pussy said: So where did the OFSC blow the grooming money. D5 sure didn't spend it the last two years. D9 did not do much either. A lot of passes should have came from D5 and D9. I don't want to see a hand in pocket because of funds pissed away. Must be run like the province. BP BP, where do you think all the money for the new groomers this year and last came from. The OFSC has stripped nearly $6 million dollars from the EQ fund to fund the groomer Replacement Program. It it really is a shame that the current OFSC operating model depends on selling a ton of permits in the south and hoping they never have to groom in the south so we can fund the shiny new groomers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbakernbay Posted December 30, 2017 Share Posted December 30, 2017 The funds go where the Grooming hours are. Problems can develop if the entire province is Grooming or the season is unusually long. Much of the surplus funds have been directed into Groomer replacement. The Trail Permit Fees need to be increased as they have not kept pace with inflation. Hopefully the recent fuel price increases won’t put Clubs/Districts/Associations Under more financial pressures. Very Few think that Trail Permit Fees have been pissed away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoso Posted December 30, 2017 Author Share Posted December 30, 2017 1 hour ago, Big Pete said: Zoos, don’t forget that the 2018-2019 permit pricing has already been approved at last AGM. The earliest we could get a substantial increase approved by the membership is 2019-2020. I would concur with your assessment that the system will run out of money should the entire province have a great year. I would not be surprised to see the grooming rate reduced from the $58/hr to somewhere in the range of $40-45/ hr. The only saving grace is there is a $750k EQ reserve to offset any shortfall. Bruteman, you forget that the FFC equalization model has been in place for 3 seasons now so clubs that were not grooming did not receive grooming funds. And with the reduction of up front permit sales from 30% to 10% there are no clubs banking large reserves anymore. Granted there are still some clubs with reserves but if we have a good season they will dipping into those reserves to fund their operating costs (as it should be). True in regards to time to get approved changes. However we have to be realistic. As we can see the general public that rides has a perception that money is abundant due to no grooming or very little the few past years where they live. what does this tell us. it tells me we need very very clear and open communication of all finances reported to the permit buyer. None of this, join a club and find out crap either. Simply put it out there for all to see in black and white, all of it. When people get to see where and what there money is spent on, where any reserves are, and how much those are, what people have been paid etc., they tend to be understanding and willing to buy in, they feel included, they take ownership. I know for a fact many think the OFSC is entity that is a secretive and exclusive non communicative club that is hiding millions. That is the perception created by us through our own policies. even within clubs getting information about money is like pulling teeth at times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soupkids Posted December 30, 2017 Share Posted December 30, 2017 10 minutes ago, zoso said: True in regards to time to get approved changes. However we have to be realistic. As we can see the general public that rides has a perception that money is abundant due to no grooming or very little the few past years where they live. what does this tell us. it tells me we need very very clear and open communication of all finances reported to the permit buyer. None of this, join a club and find out crap either. Simply put it out there for all to see in black and white, all of it. When people get to see where and what there money is spent on, where any reserves are, and how much those are, what people have been paid etc., they tend to be understanding and willing to buy in, they feel included, they take ownership. I know for a fact many think the OFSC is entity that is a secretive and exclusive non communicative club that is hiding millions. That is the perception created by us through our own policies. even within clubs getting information about money is like pulling teeth at times. This is very a good idea, the OFSC has all our email addresses from the permit buying process. shouldn't be to had to do a broadcast email even if you did 1 letter of the alphabet a day Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Pete Posted December 30, 2017 Share Posted December 30, 2017 1 hour ago, zoso said: True in regards to time to get approved changes. However we have to be realistic. As we can see the general public that rides has a perception that money is abundant due to no grooming or very little the few past years where they live. what does this tell us. it tells me we need very very clear and open communication of all finances reported to the permit buyer. None of this, join a club and find out crap either. Simply put it out there for all to see in black and white, all of it. When people get to see where and what there money is spent on, where any reserves are, and how much those are, what people have been paid etc., they tend to be understanding and willing to buy in, they feel included, they take ownership. I know for a fact many think the OFSC is entity that is a secretive and exclusive non communicative club that is hiding millions. That is the perception created by us through our own policies. even within clubs getting information about money is like pulling teeth at times. Zoso, could not agree more on the open and transparent flow of information. The problem as I see it is that the bulk of the money is spent at club level and each club would need to report. Having worked at the District level I am amazed at the difference in cost per km for trails and cost per hour of grooming even when you account for paid vs volunteer operators. A few years back I saw the annual report from the New York State Association. That report contained a brief report from each club along with summary financials. That kind of reporting would go along way to answering member questions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoso Posted December 30, 2017 Author Share Posted December 30, 2017 51 minutes ago, Big Pete said: Zoso, could not agree more on the open and transparent flow of information. The problem as I see it is that the bulk of the money is spent at club level and each club would need to report. Having worked at the District level I am amazed at the difference in cost per km for trails and cost per hour of grooming even when you account for paid vs volunteer operators. A few years back I saw the annual report from the New York State Association. That report contained a brief report from each club along with summary financials. That kind of reporting would go along way to answering member questions. Ya, it does not have to be minute details such as a chain for the saw etc. But an overview of each clubs expenditures broke down to salary, fuel, repairs, trail maint. and then a district doing the saqme and finally ofsc, a synopsis of overall spending. there is really nothing fishy going on and nothing to hide, so why not show people where their money went and why we need more. most that sled are middle class and have a decent understanding of money matters, and are reasonable. However we all are a bit jaded due to the way in which our government acts and wastes money as well as the corruption in government, and those thoughts tend to move over to any entity that is secretive with finances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZR SLEDHEAD Posted December 30, 2017 Share Posted December 30, 2017 Personally, would have no problem with permit prices coming more in line with Quebec. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viperules700 Posted December 30, 2017 Share Posted December 30, 2017 All I can say is I only rode 5 days last winter and not once local mile. This year have no local trails open yet either. Year before only rode up north too no d5 doe D9 riding at all. This year I hope to get out for a month in d5 and d9 starting soon. If the money is pissd away grooming around here for 4 or 6 weeks I will enjoy the trails for a change, since it might be another few seasons before it happens again. Early permit is suppose to even out good and bad years, that is whole point. If the grooming stops mid or late jan, I will never buy an Ontario pass again. What's the point. Have snow no grooming, no snow go up north trails are all beat and groomers are down from all traffic. Time to leave the sport if grooming does indeed stop this year early. Ofsc is smart they will groom regularly while area's have snow. Must be some reserve funds saved for this reason? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viperules700 Posted December 30, 2017 Share Posted December 30, 2017 54 minutes ago, ZR SLEDHEAD said: Personally, would have no problem with permit prices coming more in line with Quebec. I feel we need enforcement before higher permit fees. Get rid of free loaders and show a presence on trails like in Quebec, that will go along way to ending problem here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZR SLEDHEAD Posted December 30, 2017 Share Posted December 30, 2017 I'm all for more enforcement when it comes to taking the freeloaders n drinkers off the trail. Once caught, the means in place to shove it up your collective hoop hard enough your more likely vs not gonna try it again. What irks me to no end, in some areas, riding translates into multiple stops in one day along with standing around paperwork in hand waiting for the line of sledders to get checked out. Same with some of the ridiculous spots we've all see radar, down a straight as an arrow rail bed, really??? Officer I spoke with once in New Liskeard had what I considered a realistic approach to speeding. We catch you speeding in and around town, your toast. On the trails out of town, keeping it on your own side n outta the weeds, good to go but god help you if we come across you and you either in the rhubarb or cutting a corner cause that sir is not going to end well. Effective enforcement, to me, should involve, you stop, officer looks for permit and renewal sticker, leans in for a two second chat to confirm you didn't pour six jugs of beer down at lunch n call it a day. That would address what appears to be the larger issues, freeloaders n impaired sledders. Local trails not open, clubs n federation have zero control over how much cold n snow we get, sucks but thats how it is. With weather changing so much, wanting to sled, especially in Southern Ontario = chasing the snow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbakernbay Posted December 30, 2017 Share Posted December 30, 2017 Face it, there are not enough OPP Officers that are available to provide a sufficient level of on trail enforcement. The OFSC needs to convince the ON government that Trail Patrol can do this Permit enforcement if legislative changes are made and OPP cooperates similar to the Quebec Model. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
02Sled Posted December 30, 2017 Share Posted December 30, 2017 The sense I get is that there is a faction among the committee reviewing / revising the Trail Patrol program that want nothing more than to hug people and ask them to please buy a permit. End of. The program used to have Trail Wardens but that sounded too officious so they changed that name to sound more friendly. They seem to want something that in my mind has always been part of the program which is to be an ambassador but that is all. I can't count the number of maps I have handed out or the people I have provided directions to. Then there are those that have been riding on fumes where I have altered my riding to lead / follow them to the nearest gas to make sure they get there. Those that have broken down and I have towed or dead batteries that I have boosted. The program should be comprehensive AND INCLUDE enforcement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZR SLEDHEAD Posted December 30, 2017 Share Posted December 30, 2017 With system working so well in the province right beside us, hard to believe it's taken even this long so see similar on trail enforcement. Reality, be nice if we didn't need it but peeps being who peeps are, we need it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
02Sled Posted December 30, 2017 Share Posted December 30, 2017 When we were able to sell permits on trail there were people who took their chances and rode without one. They also however just happened to have the right amount of cash on hand to buy a permit if stopped. Some of them claimed they were on their way to one of the permit sellers and did I have one I could sell them so they didn't have to travel to the seller. Now you see some just don't care and tend to ride with impunity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbakernbay Posted December 30, 2017 Share Posted December 30, 2017 16 hours ago, theedge said: I'm sure most would be ok with more if the money did indeed go towards grooming. With respect, where do you think the money is going if not to insurance, groomers & drags, fuel, equipment repairs, signage and trail development? In my view the income from Trail Permit revenue has not kept pace with the increasing costs of groomers, fuel and big ticket items like bridges now being required to meet code. Federal and provincial funding is noticeably less than 10 years ago as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
02Sled Posted December 30, 2017 Share Posted December 30, 2017 Many people develop an artificial sense of what they should pay for something and will not pay anymore than the number in their head regardless of whether it makes any sense or not. Just like the marketing pros have for years had stores price things at $199.99 rather than $200.00. That one cent difference makes a psychological difference. Many people just need to be convinced of a perceived value. Governments are expert at this. There have been tests done in retail environments. Put product A on the shelf at $199.99 as a regular price and sell a few. Up the price to $239.99 and then put it at a SALE price of $209.99 and you will sell a lot more than you ever did at $199.99. Why? Because the word sale lets people think they are getting a bargain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbakernbay Posted December 30, 2017 Share Posted December 30, 2017 26 minutes ago, 02Sled said: Many people develop an artificial sense of what they should pay for something and will not pay anymore than the number in their head regardless of whether it makes any sense or not. Just like the marketing pros have for years had stores price things at $199.99 rather than $200.00. That one cent difference makes a psychological difference. Many people just need to be convinced of a perceived value. Governments are expert at this. There have been tests done in retail environments. Put product A on the shelf at $199.99 as a regular price and sell a few. Up the price to $239.99 and then put it at a SALE price of $209.99 and you will sell a lot more than you ever did at $199.99. Why? Because the word sale lets people think they are getting a bargain. So how do we apply that marketing concept to OFSC Trail Permits? We Already Have Early, Early Bird, Early Bird and Post-December 1st plus Classics! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
02Sled Posted December 30, 2017 Share Posted December 30, 2017 5 minutes ago, bbakernbay said: So how do we apply that marketing concept to OFSC Trail Permits? We Already Have Early, Early Bird, Early Bird and Post-December 1st plus Classics! Dramatic change is not palatable by most. Right now full season is $270 and early early is $190. The vast majority buy at $190. If the full price was perhaps $300+ and the early early gradually increased ($10 increments) with an emphasis on the $ savings by buying early it may be a manageable sell. I'm not a marketing expert. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wyatt Posted December 30, 2017 Share Posted December 30, 2017 27 minutes ago, 02Sled said: Dramatic change is not palatable by most. Right now full season is $270 and early early is $190. The vast majority buy at $190. If the full price was perhaps $300+ and the early early gradually increased ($10 increments) with an emphasis on the $ savings by buying early it may be a manageable sell. I'm not a marketing expert. Well compared to Quebec it seems Ontario is rather cheap? Perhaps if they were completely transparent with the costs, where the money goes and so on it would make sense? The alternative is to subdivide into weekend passes, day/night only passes and so on to the point where you come up with something that is affordable for everyone. I believe everyone would be willing to pay more if it meant better trail conditions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viperules700 Posted December 30, 2017 Share Posted December 30, 2017 21 minutes ago, Wyatt said: Well compared to Quebec it seems Ontario is rather cheap? Perhaps if they were completely transparent with the costs, where the money goes and so on it would make sense? The alternative is to subdivide into weekend passes, day/night only passes and so on to the point where you come up with something that is affordable for everyone. I believe everyone would be willing to pay more if it meant better trail conditions. You have hit nail on head again. Problem is they need money up front at start of the season to get system ready and pay on going costs. I like concept of early permits. The idea behind it is, if it a good season rider feels like he got great value and a bad season then ofsc should be putting some money into reserves to average out. Last two seasons have been bad in south and some central regions, so ofsc should be in good shape to handle this year's better winter, since early permit numbers have been good for several years now. If grooming stops in early feb because revenue dries up, do you think riders will pay more next season? Weekly and daily permits should be available. But in past it is believed riders bought weekly permits instead of early full season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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