Nunz Posted November 3, 2017 Share Posted November 3, 2017 3 hours ago, 04nightfire said: Revy? I did it a few years ago and is definitely something everyone should try. I didn't want to come home This place was at the snowmobile show and we were very impressed with them. leaning towards this, hoping to get a group of us to go there. https://grizzlylodge.ca/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dweese Posted November 3, 2017 Share Posted November 3, 2017 I work with a few younger guys that sled. Biggest issue they have with their club is the old boys club feel it has they say. Try and volunteer to help with trail clearing or groomer maintaince and the older guys make then feel very unwelcome. I've seen this before with a few clubs in D3... Tweed Club was really bad for the old boys atmosphere, maybe why they aren't around anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
02Sled Posted November 3, 2017 Share Posted November 3, 2017 22 minutes ago, dweese said: I work with a few younger guys that sled. Biggest issue they have with their club is the old boys club feel it has they say. Try and volunteer to help with trail clearing or groomer maintaince and the older guys make then feel very unwelcome. I've seen this before with a few clubs in D3... Tweed Club was really bad for the old boys atmosphere, maybe why they aren't around anymore. Our club is doing trail work tomorrow. We always try to make sure anyone who goes out feels welcome although not everyone seems to feel that way. One of our directors has volunteered to buy everyone that gets out tomorrow lunch at one of the local restaurants. The other option is that another of the directors has volunteered to provide sausage and the fixings for a bbq at the groomer building for lunch. It can be tough sometimes for someone, especially if they are not that out going themselves to feel included when they are the new guy among a bunch of people that already know each other. Sometimes it's a combination of effort on the part of the new guy and the core group that are always there. Sometimes the new guy arriving and being confident enough to walk up, say hi I'm Joe Smith, extend a hand and ask, what's the plan for today rather than waiting around in the background. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigfish Posted November 4, 2017 Share Posted November 4, 2017 19 hours ago, Nunz said: This place was at the snowmobile show and we were very impressed with them. leaning towards this, hoping to get a group of us to go there. https://grizzlylodge.ca/ Check these guys out as well http://www.riderevelstoke.ca/ Great Canadian Snowmobile Tours Went with them in late March this year and had an incredible time. Located at Glacier House Resort at the base of Boulder Mountain, the sleds were in great shape (850 Doo Doo with 163" track) and the guide was knowledgeable and patient (with this old flat-lander) I highly recommend them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirtybeacher Posted November 4, 2017 Share Posted November 4, 2017 You don't have to go way up north for good, legal, off trail riding. You'd be surprised how close some of it is. https://www.ontario.ca/page/crown-land-use-policy-atlas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
02Sled Posted November 4, 2017 Share Posted November 4, 2017 1 hour ago, dirtybeacher said: You don't have to go way up north for good, legal, off trail riding. You'd be surprised how close some of it is. https://www.ontario.ca/page/crown-land-use-policy-atlas I took a look at the map and started reading into the definitions regarding use of the varying categories. Just because it is government owned land doesn't mean it's a do as you please zone. It seems most of the categories in the legend have some form of restriction associated with them. I know it's one of the more basic examples but a provincial park doesn't have wide open access even if closed as most are in the winter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirtybeacher Posted November 4, 2017 Share Posted November 4, 2017 12 minutes ago, 02Sled said: I took a look at the map and started reading into the definitions regarding use of the varying categories. Just because it is government owned land doesn't mean it's a do as you please zone. It seems most of the categories in the legend have some form of restriction associated with them. I know it's one of the more basic examples but a provincial park doesn't have wide open access even if closed as most are in the winter. You can pinpoint an area, and find out what exactly activities are permitted for that specific area. Hunting, fishing, atv, snowmobile etc. This is an example of where "off trail" riding is not allowed, but trail riding is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirtybeacher Posted November 4, 2017 Share Posted November 4, 2017 And here's an area where off trail is permitted. The atlas isn't the most intuitive to use, but once you learn all the features- you will always "know before you go". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
02Sled Posted November 4, 2017 Share Posted November 4, 2017 I also tried to cross reference as best I could what appeared to be true crown land in "central Ontario" that is okay for a snowmobile to be off trail with the OFSC trail map. One of the challenges it would seem is that those areas where you would be allowed to go don't seem to have trails running to them so how you get there may be interesting. The other aspect I suspect is that most of these areas are tree covered which is the norm for what would be referred to as Muskoka or near to Muskoka and not what those off trail riders are looking for. How many of these crown land areas that would allow snowmobiles also are large open areas that those riders are looking for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yukon Posted November 4, 2017 Share Posted November 4, 2017 4 hours ago, dirtybeacher said: And here's an area where off trail is permitted. The atlas isn't the most intuitive to use, but once you learn all the features- you will always "know before you go". Thank you for being a responsible off trail rider! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcZEd382 Posted November 4, 2017 Share Posted November 4, 2017 Great thread but why don't we talking about re inventing the wheel?? C'mon guys, Quebec is working on hard on it. Why can't we? (I know snow cover ain't the same and funding is not the same but at least they are making a strong effort at the organizational level) And props to the whole team involve din the Wawa Top Secret Boondocking project. https://fcmq.qc.ca/en/safety-informations/trail-riding/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
02Sled Posted November 4, 2017 Share Posted November 4, 2017 17 minutes ago, mcZEd382 said: Great thread but why don't we talking about re inventing the wheel?? C'mon guys, Quebec is working on hard on it. Why can't we? (I know snow cover ain't the same and funding is not the same but at least they are making a strong effort at the organizational level) And props to the whole team involve din the Wawa Top Secret Boondocking project. https://fcmq.qc.ca/en/safety-informations/trail-riding/ The volunteers we have are for the most part fully burdened with all the time they can spare providing the trails we all enjoy. 5% of the people buying passes doing 95% of the work. Before someone says anything those numbers are educated guesses but typical for any volunteer scenario. If there are those who want to ride off trail how about they step up and volunteer to do something about it rather than just assume that someone else should / will do it for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yukon Posted November 4, 2017 Share Posted November 4, 2017 13 minutes ago, 02Sled said: The volunteers we have are for the most part fully burdened with all the time they can spare providing the trails we all enjoy. 5% of the people buying passes doing 95% of the work. Before someone says anything those numbers are educated guesses but typical for any volunteer scenario. If there are those who want to ride off trail how about they step up and volunteer to do something about it rather than just assume that someone else should / will do it for them. I think that's a fair guess with the numbers. It's much easier to step up when you have crown lands such as Wawa surrounding you. Try to find something south of Sudbury and you will find it's not worth the effort. For example not enough fresh pow to provide to be viable, weather fluctuations etc etc. I am not against this in the least, I do believe there is a market for off trail riding. But as a governing body such as the ofsc, risk management and staying on trail is our mandate. I f the ofsc were to start leading people to these off trail locations we will be opening a whole new can of worms. My belief is anything south of Sudbury will require a Private off trail snow park... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcZEd382 Posted November 5, 2017 Share Posted November 5, 2017 54 minutes ago, 02Sled said: The volunteers we have are for the most part fully burdened with all the time they can spare providing the trails we all enjoy. 5% of the people buying passes doing 95% of the work. Before someone says anything those numbers are educated guesses but typical for any volunteer scenario. If there are those who want to ride off trail how about they step up and volunteer to do something about it rather than just assume that someone else should / will do it for them. Agreed regarding volunteer work load. I'm not sure where volunteers fit in this equation though. This is a complicated problem that requires a ton of effort at upper levels of the pasttime. Sure ground level support and awareness is a must for any effort to succeed but the planning and strategy for how to promote that awareness has to come from the top. Kinda why I linked to the FCMQ effort which is being driven at the organizational level, with efforts to recognize the problem and come up with ideas of how to try and move all stake holders forward. Yes in the end it is local clubs that will determine if they have an area that meets the criteria laid out in the FCMQ plan but the framework of that plan has not been left to overworked volunteers to come up with. At least that's not the feeling one gets reading thru the web page. My point is that this thread seems to be throwing ideas on the wall and trying to see what sticks, while meanwhile in the province right next door they are already way ahead of the curve by developing a plan and implementing it. Meanwhile the OFSC who touts itself as the voice of all snowmobiling in Ontario remains silent. My idea for grass roots volunteer involvement in helping to solve this problem: The OFSC runs a contest, open to people over the age of 18. It is run just like the SnowTrax N.A. Best Snowmobiler. Contestants submit video testimony of what they personally do to move organized trail riding forward in Ontario. One finalist from each district is selected and sent to Wawa on an all expense weekend in the Top Secret location. The weekend is spent learning to off trail ride and on the final day a competition is held. grand prix winner of the whole shebang gets a mountain sled or an all expense paid weekend in one of Quebec's newly designated regions: https://fcmq.qc.ca/files/5814/7144/5724/Hors-piste-region-de-la-capitale-nationale.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blake G Posted November 5, 2017 Share Posted November 5, 2017 5 hours ago, mcZEd382 said: Great thread but why don't we talking about re inventing the wheel?? C'mon guys, Quebec is working on hard on it. Why can't we? (I know snow cover ain't the same and funding is not the same but at least they are making a strong effort at the organizational level) And props to the whole team involve din the Wawa Top Secret Boondocking project. https://fcmq.qc.ca/en/safety-informations/trail-riding/ Thanks for the FCMQ link: it seems they are well on the way to servicing the interests of the freeriders. Lower Canada's legal system is quite different from Upper Canada's, if I recall correctly. Perhaps there are more liability concerns in Ontario than in Quebec. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sledjunk Posted November 5, 2017 Share Posted November 5, 2017 4 hours ago, Yukon Cornelious said: Thank you for being a responsible off trail rider! X2! This is a valuable resource for those interested in freeriding. Just hope that it is used and respected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skidooboy Posted November 5, 2017 Share Posted November 5, 2017 12 hours ago, 02Sled said: If there are those who want to ride off trail how about they step up and volunteer to do something about it rather than just assume that someone else should / will do it for them. there you go, painting with the BIG BRUSH AGAIN. matt posted he volunteers, lynne and I help the clubs when we can, we have brushed, signed, search and rescue help, worked snow shows, helped many different clubs and communities sell permits, and bring more and more people to those towns and into our sport, for the last 20 years in ontario. we like offtrail riding, exploring the back country and fishing on our long track, long lugged sleds, and now snowbikes. we also like trail riding town to town for small weekend trips with friends and family. we came from the high mileage touring segment. many people migrate and change what they like the most. many of the people with this closed mindedness, are judging books by covers. the ofsc is the voice of SNOWMOBILE CLUBS in ONTARIO. people in the clubs and ofsc not wanting to embrace the fastest growing segment (off trail riding), are part of the problem. they want new young blood to help out but, don't want their sleds, or "there kind" on their trails, or in their clubs, because they dress different, ride a bigger flashy sled, embrace social media ect... lets face it, the volunteers, and touring, segment of our population are dwindling. if you want sledding to continue at all, we need to embrace, and encourage younger people getting into the sport, NO MATTER WHAT THEY RIDE. more sleds, bikes equals, more permit money to do more for the system. we are not asking for the ofsc to make offtrail areas for the offtrail riders... we are asking for the ofsc to allow us use of their sanctioned trails with our permits, to access our play areas. I know many think that once they allow snowbikes on the trail, there will bill thousands of these things out there wrecking havoc. the niche' is VERY SMALL, AND IT IS VERY EXPENSIVE TO BUILD ONE OF THESE THINGS. you are not going to see many people with these, and they do no more damage to the trail, than any sled in responsible hands. so you understand... newer sleds are well over 10k now right? new dirt bike+ 7-12k, THEN YOU HAVE TO BUY THE 5-9000 (YES FIVE TO NINE THOUSAND DOLLARS) KIT. seeing that math, I hope that helps some understand, We wont see a huge influx of people but, they could add to the volunteer base, and permit fee kitty, if they were allowed to participate on the trails with permits, to access the legal offtrail riding areas they seek. and at this time, we cant even legally buy permits for the bikes. what would be nice, would be to allow more permit sales by allowing ALL riders the opportunity to utilize the trails, to access the back country (in areas that it is allowed, and legal), ALL SNOW GOING UNITS THAT MEET THE OVER THE SNOW CRITERIA, short tracks, long tracks, long lugs and snowbikes, units with tracks and skis, and not in-fight about it. think about this, the largest growing segment leaving your trail kitty, because they cant legally ride the trails. talk about system wide collapse... enjoy it while you can. Ski Ski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blake G Posted November 5, 2017 Share Posted November 5, 2017 Off trail riding causes huge problems for dozens of clubs in the southern and central parts of Ontario. Trespassing on private property costs countless volunteer hours and results in trail closures that alienate landowners and affect thousands of riders. The situation might be different a few hours north. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skidooboy Posted November 5, 2017 Share Posted November 5, 2017 blake, you are missing the point, and only looking at the small pond scenario... legal riding areas. that is all we have been quoting. enforcement of the violators, will curb the central and southern area issues. force them to ride legally, or fine them out of existence. Ski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
02Sled Posted November 5, 2017 Share Posted November 5, 2017 1 hour ago, skidooboy said: there you go, painting with the BIG BRUSH AGAIN. matt posted he volunteers, lynne and I help the clubs when we can, we have brushed, signed, search and rescue help, worked snow shows, helped many different clubs and communities sell permits, and bring more and more people to those towns and into our sport, for the last 20 years in ontario. we like offtrail riding, exploring the back country and fishing on our long track, long lugged sleds, and now snowbikes. we also like trail riding town to town for small weekend trips with friends and family. we came from the high mileage touring segment. many people migrate and change what they like the most. many of the people with this closed mindedness, are judging books by covers. the ofsc is the voice of SNOWMOBILE CLUBS in ONTARIO. people in the clubs and ofsc not wanting to embrace the fastest growing segment (off trail riding), are part of the problem. they want new young blood to help out but, don't want their sleds, or "there kind" on their trails, or in their clubs, because they dress different, ride a bigger flashy sled, embrace social media ect... lets face it, the volunteers, and touring, segment of our population are dwindling. if you want sledding to continue at all, we need to embrace, and encourage younger people getting into the sport, NO MATTER WHAT THEY RIDE. more sleds, bikes equals, more permit money to do more for the system. we are not asking for the ofsc to make offtrail areas for the offtrail riders... we are asking for the ofsc to allow us use of their sanctioned trails with our permits, to access our play areas. I know many think that once they allow snowbikes on the trail, there will bill thousands of these things out there wrecking havoc. the niche' is VERY SMALL, AND IT IS VERY EXPENSIVE TO BUILD ONE OF THESE THINGS. you are not going to see many people with these, and they do no more damage to the trail, than any sled in responsible hands. so you understand... newer sleds are well over 10k now right? new dirt bike+ 7-12k, THEN YOU HAVE TO BUY THE 5-9000 (YES FIVE TO NINE THOUSAND DOLLARS) KIT. seeing that math, I hope that helps some understand, We wont see a huge influx of people but, they could add to the volunteer base, and permit fee kitty, if they were allowed to participate on the trails with permits, to access the legal offtrail riding areas they seek. and at this time, we cant even legally buy permits for the bikes. what would be nice, would be to allow more permit sales by allowing ALL riders the opportunity to utilize the trails, to access the back country (in areas that it is allowed, and legal), ALL SNOW GOING UNITS THAT MEET THE OVER THE SNOW CRITERIA, short tracks, long tracks, long lugs and snowbikes, units with tracks and skis, and not in-fight about it. think about this, the largest growing segment leaving your trail kitty, because they cant legally ride the trails. talk about system wide collapse... enjoy it while you can. Ski Ski There you go again. You seem to think the OFSC and people like me are out to get you and those that want to ride off trail. I only have a problem with those that have a total disregard for private property, have a sense of entitlement and ignore the Stay On Trail Or Permission Revoked signs and ride through that open field that belongs to our generous land owner who can tell us, I have had enough.... get off my property. You know... the guy that says that sign can't mean me too. First bold from above. don't want their sleds, or "there kind" on their trails, or in their clubs, because they dress different, ride a bigger flashy sled, Where have I said that people who ride their snowmobiles on the trails and also like to ride off trail aren't or shouldn't be allowed on the trails (as long as they have a permit) OH THAT'S RIGHT I DIDN'T - NEVER HAVE, NEVER WILL. DO I CARE WHAT THEY WEAR? THEY COULD RIDE IN PINK T-SHIRT AND SHORTS FOR ALL I CARE. I may think what someone wears is different and unique and I wouldn't wear it but really I don't care. Second bold. we are not asking for the ofsc to make offtrail areas for the offtrail riders... we are asking for the ofsc to allow us use of their sanctioned trails with our permits, to access our play areas. Really? The article in Snowtrax is about the opinion that the OFSC should be embracing, creating and assuming responsibility for these off trail areas. I find it incredulous that someone on a snowmobile on an OFSC trail WITH AN OFSC PERMIT could or would be told they can't ride the trail. Are you really trying to suggest that someone with a snowmobile and an OFSC permit is being told they can't use the trails? Personally I don't care where their ultimate destination is. If they are riding the trail to go off trail on private property which we have been generously permitted access to for our trail I care. If they are riding the trail to go off trail on crown land where snowmobiles are permitted I really don't care. Have at it. Not all crown land is "do what you want". In our area we have a section of trail that runs on crown land for quite a distance. We have to deal with the MNR for access or any trail changes. They restrict the use of that crown land. Third bold. we cant even legally buy permits for the bikes That is the province and the MSVA. The OFSC may be able to request a change to the MSVA however it is up to the Minister to approve that change. On that subject I can't say one way or the other whether I would support that or not. I can see some potential problems that MAY come from the bikes but still would be undecided. We have enough of a problem today with snowmobiles coming over the blind crest of a hill and being airborne. When they do they far too often tend to be in the middle or the wrong side of the trail. Going back to my much younger dirt bike days the big thing was to be airborne coming over a hill. Perhaps the "snowbike" would be even more conducive to that behaviour and we have even more people flying over that hill crest. The other concern to which I don't know the answer would be the noise levels. In your area not really a concern. In many of our areas residents may object to the noise levels on a snowbike which seem to be louder than the typical snowmobile. The other thing is the slippery slope that may open up when those with ATV's, converted ATV's (tracked), pickup trucks and jeeps with tracks substituted for wheels say, you made an exception for snowbikes, now you have to make an exception for us too. Last bold what would be nice, would be to allow more permit sales by allowing ALL riders the opportunity to utilize the trails, to access the back country (in areas that it is allowed, and legal), ALL SNOW GOING UNITS THAT MEET THE OVER THE SNOW CRITERIA, short tracks, long tracks, long lugs and snowbikes, units with tracks and skis, and not in-fight about it. ALL riders riding a "snowmobile" that is compliant with the MSVA DO have the opportunity to utilize the trails to access the back country (in areas that it is allowed, and legal) Where do they NOT HAVE THAT OPPORTUNITY? Snowbikes as I have said I am not sure about but have not closed that door in my mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baylaker Posted November 5, 2017 Share Posted November 5, 2017 $2300 for 4 nights seems pretty good. Watched some videos on YouTube about grizzly lodge recently! Looks awesome! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blake G Posted November 5, 2017 Share Posted November 5, 2017 "many of the people with this closed mindedness, are judging books by covers. the ofsc is the voice of SNOWMOBILE CLUBS in ONTARIO. people in the clubs and ofsc not wanting to embrace the fastest growing segment (off trail riding), are part of the problem. they want new young blood to help out but, don't want their sleds, or "there kind" on their trails, or in their clubs, because they dress different, ride a bigger flashy sled, embrace social media ect... lets face it, the volunteers, and touring, segment of our population are dwindling. if you want sledding to continue at all, we need to embrace, and encourage younger people getting into the sport, NO MATTER WHAT THEY RIDE. more sleds, bikes equals, more permit money to do more for the system. we are not asking for the ofsc to make offtrail areas for the offtrail riders... we are asking for the ofsc to allow us use of their sanctioned trails with our permits, to access our play areas. " 2 hours ago, Blake G said: Off trail riding causes huge problems for dozens of clubs in the southern and central parts of Ontario. Trespassing on private property costs countless volunteer hours and results in trail closures that alienate landowners and affect thousands of riders. The situation might be different a few hours north. "blake, you are missing the point, and only looking at the small pond scenario... legal riding areas. that is all we have been quoting. enforcement of the violators, will curb the central and southern area issues. force them to ride legally, or fine them out of existence. Ski" Ski, there are several points being referenced in this thread. I'm only trying to say that I can't see why the central and southern area snowmobile clubs would want to "embrace" off trail riding in their districts. I do agree there's an interest in off trail riding, but the suitable opportunities are limited or non-existent in the south and central areas. Clubs have their hands full, and need to be very careful about deciding where to concentrate their efforts. When you ride along a groomed trail and see guys exploring off into a farmer's field, it's very discouraging and maddening. Sledders who want to enjoy the fun of riding off-trail need to take the personal initiative to drive north to a suitable area, where good folks such as yourself like to explore. I've learned of some off trail riding places in my neck of the woods and slightly north (crown land), and love to spend a few hours there each season. When combined with excellent lake running, it's the best it gets around here. It is great fun to enjoy some of these spots with folks looking to do off-trail riding in our area, but I do that on a personal basis, perhaps through this forum, and not through involvement in an OFSC club. I buy permits from three local clubs, and I can't see these clubs promoting off trail riding. I also bought one permit from Timiskiming Abitibi Trails Association this year, and I know they have promoted some off trail club rides, which I really hope to try this season. I also hope to get up to Wawa some time soon, to check out the more extensive boondocking opportunites. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stoney Posted November 5, 2017 Share Posted November 5, 2017 5 hours ago, Baylaker said: $2300 for 4 nights seems pretty good. Watched some videos on YouTube about grizzly lodge recently! Looks awesome! Ya, I was checking that out too, really something that I want to do someday.....looks awesome, and I am sure one hell of a work out! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
02Sled Posted November 5, 2017 Share Posted November 5, 2017 18 minutes ago, stoney said: Ya, I was checking that out too, really something that I want to do someday.....looks awesome, and I am sure one hell of a work out! I heard from one person that they forgot to account for the effect of thinner air on "the work out" at the higher elevations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soupkids Posted November 5, 2017 Share Posted November 5, 2017 On 03/11/2017 at 10:05 AM, stoney said: There are already places that you can do this, just need to find the folks that know the special spots that you can ride without causing riffs.....but those that know, will not want to share, more knowledge means less virgin snow and for the most part and most years as of late, Ontario does not receive enough snow for good off trail riding. With what snow we typically receive, imagine if it was turned into an organized system with increased traffic, it would not be very good as you need lots snow on a continuous basis, so adding more attention to this activity that few enjoy now, is just going to make these areas worse and might drive people into areas that they should not be even more than they are now! Even some of the actual on trail riding has been tough in recent years with the lack of snow and terrain Ontario deals with. You truely want off trail, start up an organized group event here that takes larger groups of people out west that might help bring the prices down. Have you ridden up north. Even in sudbury we had ample snow to ride off trail if you knew where to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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