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OFSC AGM Fri and Sat


Farmer Brown

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16 hours ago, sledjunk said:

Big Pete, that is what I understood as well, which I must say surprised me.  I expected that the price would simply stay the same.  However, I read into that the expectation that the approval would be imminent.

 

I am expecting that the pre November price will go up by $10, but the other prices will actually increase by $17.50 ($10 + $7.50 fulfillment).  On a side note, that $7.50 (or some amount) was absorbed from the $210 and $260 last year.  Where will that extra $7.50 X 90 thousand or so permits be allocated?

 

 

Not sure what imminent means in the provincial govt. Look at the new Not For Profit Legislation which was supposed to make life so much better in the NFP world. Passed in 2010 and it still awaits Royal Assent. Oh and by the way the govt has committed to giving 2 years notice of Royal Assent and then a 3 year phase in period. Some sense of urgency. But in the end I think it will be approved just in time for Oct 1

 

As to incremental revenue from the additional fulfillment fees. The OFSC Budget for this year planned a shortfall of $227,509 (Gross Fulfillment EXP of $612,259 less Recoveries $384,750) which comes out of this years permit revenues. If the Minister approves the package as presented then the OFSC has an extra $227k in the budget. If they follow the motion that was approved last year, any surplus funds in the OFSC Programs and Insurance Funds  budgets would be slotted into the Equalization Fund. This would allow them to substantially offset the cost of putting the Trails Cost Allowance back to $63.09 from the proposed $53.09. The cost would be approx $320K  (32K of trails at $10.00 increase).

 

My guess is that the $227k will just get absorbed into some mysterious budget item for spending at the discretion of the board.

 

 

 

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9 hours ago, Big Pete said:

 

I don't think we have any presence or influence at Queens Park. The govt politely acknowledges us, thanks us for the visit (and probably lunch) and then carries on doing whatever they they were doing. 3 items outline this.

 

First, Bill 100 which has significantly impacted our access to private land for trails. How could a govt contemplate a trail bill without consulting fully with the largest trail operation in the province? Yes, they did consult on the Tresspas portions of the bill but we were not consulted on the most contentious issue, the easement section of the bill.

 

Second, when we were first discussing Frame Work For Change, one of the key planks to the strategy was "Sustainable Funding". The OFSC hung their hat on getting significant funding from a significantly increased Val tag registration fee. That idea has been part of each permit recommendation for the last 4 years with no results. But they say it's important to keep it in front of the minister. They make it sound like the initiative has some realistic chance of succeeding. But it's funny. We were looking for some nostalgia items for the 50th Celebration when we came across an OSM magazine from Aug 1993. In it was an article with the OFSC president of the day and they were talking about getting Val tag revenue back then. So 24 years later we are still flogging that option and we are no further ahead today than we were back then. Obviously the govt has a deaf ear when it comes to helping the sport grow and develop in Ontario.  They are quite content to throw us a bone by way of some TDF funding. It will be $1,000,000 this year but as someone pointed out earlier it use to be $3,000,000.  So so maybe it's time the leadership looks for a new strategy for the "Sustainable Funding" plank. 

 

And finally, the demise of the STOP program is another example of lack of influence at the provincial level.  Again in the FFC strategy, embforcement was a key plank. We even made some progress in the first year with an increased cohort of new trainees to bolster the on trail enforcement. But for whatever reason, the program got off the rails between the OFSC and the OPP. We can argue the causes but the fact remains the program was cancelled with no viable means of replacing the ontrail enforcement capabilities. What an opportunity to go to the province and seek their assistance in resolving the issues and ensure the program continued. Don't know for sure if we asked. If we did, the answer was clearly we are not getting involved which supports the lack of effectiveness of our lobbying. If we didn't ask, then shame on the leadership.

 

 

 

I know with the deputy OPP commissioner in charge of HSD etc that was there I stated it to him I know the real reason you disbanded the STOP program due to your SAVE team BS. He acknowledged that part but then quickly went to stating it was due to "safety reasons" they shut it down which is the biggest BS i've heard.I wanted to ask him where is your data to support that theory of being unsafe?? They have much of the same self defense training as the full OPP officers and were trained in most aspects of dealing with the MSVA and liquor acts etc. And the OFSC just folded to the OPP on this with NO fight what so ever! Pathetic! Those are OUR trails NOT the OPP! 

 

He even acknowledged the fact that there has been a steady DECLINE every year on OPP enforcement and presence on OUR trails. Himself last season even stated while he was out sledding he did NOT see 1 OPP on our trails. Our T.P needs better enforcement tools to aid them in doing their job properly and the OFSC NEEDS to get on this faster rather than later! Maybe similar to that of quebec etc. Although highly unlikely with Cheryl Reid drumming through her Walmart greeter stance for T.P!

 

I touched briefly with him for the fact with respects to ORS responders. When we hear of accidents on OUR trails we send out ORS responders to do their investigations and reporting similar to that that the OPP do when a collision occurs on the trails. I stated it is often hard for responders to get the proper info as most officers site privacy BS. Yes their names and address info they dont need to give out but they certainly can tell us that #1 a collision did happen on said trail at said time along with any other relevant info they CAN give out. He at least acknowledged this point and then stated to Paul that they might be able to make a set policy for this province wide which would be nice. yes some ors have contacts to their own detachments but sometimes contacts change and you get less cooperation then you were before. 

 

Thanks minister of tourism for giving us $1 million! we'll try not to spend that all in one place!        

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SuperG - Thanks for your report on the OPP presentation.

 

You are entirely accurate in your assessment.

 

You are also correct that the OFSC has got to get some agreement on how we can enforce Trail Permit enforcement on our trails.  Quebec has the cooperation and it works for them.

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13 hours ago, Big Pete said:

 

I don't think we have any presence or influence at Queens Park. The govt politely acknowledges us, thanks us for the visit (and probably lunch) and then carries on doing whatever they they were doing. 3 items outline this.

 

First, Bill 100 which has significantly impacted our access to private land for trails. How could a govt contemplate a trail bill without consulting fully with the largest trail operation in the province? Yes, they did consult on the Tresspas portions of the bill but we were not consulted on the most contentious issue, the easement section of the bill.

 

Second, when we were first discussing Frame Work For Change, one of the key planks to the strategy was "Sustainable Funding". The OFSC hung their hat on getting significant funding from a significantly increased Val tag registration fee. That idea has been part of each permit recommendation for the last 4 years with no results. But they say it's important to keep it in front of the minister. They make it sound like the initiative has some realistic chance of succeeding. But it's funny. We were looking for some nostalgia items for the 50th Celebration when we came across an OSM magazine from Aug 1993. In it was an article with the OFSC president of the day and they were talking about getting Val tag revenue back then. So 24 years later we are still flogging that option and we are no further ahead today than we were back then. Obviously the govt has a deaf ear when it comes to helping the sport grow and develop in Ontario.  They are quite content to throw us a bone by way of some TDF funding. It will be $1,000,000 this year but as someone pointed out earlier it use to be $3,000,000.  So so maybe it's time the leadership looks for a new strategy for the "Sustainable Funding" plank. 

 

And finally, the demise of the STOP program is another example of lack of influence at the provincial level.  Again in the FFC strategy, embforcement was a key plank. We even made some progress in the first year with an increased cohort of new trainees to bolster the on trail enforcement. But for whatever reason, the program got off the rails between the OFSC and the OPP. We can argue the causes but the fact remains the program was cancelled with no viable means of replacing the ontrail enforcement capabilities. What an opportunity to go to the province and seek their assistance in resolving the issues and ensure the program continued. Don't know for sure if we asked. If we did, the answer was clearly we are not getting involved which supports the lack of effectiveness of our lobbying. If we didn't ask, then shame on the leadership.

 

 

 

Our sport doesn't fit their narrative of greenness.If we had a trans-province network of XC ski trails, the province would be all over it. 

 

Look @ the snails pace progress on the oval track project in Ft. Erie.

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10 hours ago, revrnd said:

Our sport doesn't fit their narrative of greenness.If we had a trans-province network of XC ski trails, the province would be all over it. 

 

Look @ the snails pace progress on the oval track project in Ft. Erie.

green eh? another tactic.....How about that outfit and their friends that won the 'competition' for marketing the OFSC, get in the Toronto Pride Parade next summer, stage a protest, and threaten to hold up the parade until the demands for better sled trails and more funding are met.....it has worked for other groups if you've read a newspaper....judging by the pictures I have seen....arms crossed, chins forward, stern looking....they'd fit right in...take one for the team.

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7 hours ago, slomo said:

green eh? another tactic.....How about that outfit and their friends that won the 'competition' for marketing the OFSC, get in the Toronto Pride Parade next summer, stage a protest, and threaten to hold up the parade until the demands for better sled trails and more funding are met.....it has worked for other groups if you've read a newspaper....judging by the pictures I have seen....arms crossed, chins forward, stern looking....they'd fit right in...take one for the team.

Don't get me going on that BS. My reply would get me exiled to FS.

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20 hours ago, revrnd said:

Our sport doesn't fit their narrative of greenness.If we had a trans-province network of XC ski trails, the province would be all over it. 

 

Look @ the snails pace progress on the oval track project in Ft. Erie.

NASCAR is dying quickly, I can't believe the number of empty seats at most of their Cup Series races and the lesser series aren't drawing at all.  Looks terrible on TV.

 

I would think the Fort Erie investors, particularly their lenders are having a serious second thought on the financial viability of such a large venture.

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I think Wynne might be working at the OFSC sometimes 

 

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3 minutes ago, bbakernbay said:

NASCAR is dying quickly, I can't believe the number of empty seats at most of their Cup Series races and the lesser series aren't drawing at all.  Looks terrible on TV.

 

I would think the Fort Erie investors, particularly their lenders are having a serious second thought on the financial viability of such a large venture.

I was thinking of all the 'studies' of the unused agricultural land where the proposal is set to be built. 

 

W/ the way things go in Canada (let alone Ontario) I doubt the CPR would've been built across the country nowadays.

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Ive been stopped by opp a couple of times and they are always on road crossing checking for licence and insurance,they could care less if you have a permit or not .

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14 minutes ago, wrightonalan said:

Ive been stopped by opp a couple of times and they are always on road crossing checking for licence and insurance,they could care less if you have a permit or not .

This appears to be a more common experience, OPP not enforcing Trail Permits.

 

I hope this point was raised with OPP Deputy Commissioner at AGM.

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On 9/19/2017 at 8:55 AM, slomo said:

green eh? another tactic.....How about that outfit and their friends that won the 'competition' for marketing the OFSC, get in the Toronto Pride Parade next summer, stage a protest, and threaten to hold up the parade until the demands for better sled trails and more funding are met.....it has worked for other groups if you've read a newspaper....judging by the pictures I have seen....arms crossed, chins forward, stern looking....they'd fit right in...take one for the team.

They're @ it again:

 

http://www.torontosun.com/2017/09/19/why-blm-does-what-it-wants

 

SLM - Snowmobilers' Lives Matter

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14 hours ago, wrightonalan said:

Ive been stopped by opp a couple of times and they are always on road crossing checking for licence and insurance,they could care less if you have a permit or not .

 

X2 -  The OPP care about giving tickets for speeding, drinking, registration, and insurance.  They want your drivers license if you qualify to receive any of the previously mentioned awards or if they still think they should get to know you better.  MNR only seemed to care about the registration and insurance last season when they stopped our group.  We had my daughter and her friend with a few of us.  They were out with a dog checking the lakes for people hiding "over the limit" fish. 

 

Years ago (2004 Super bowl day is how I remember) MNR stopped us (6 guys) and searched all our sleds and bags and called in all of our registrations in on a SAT Phone!  Took over an hour before they let us put our stuff back together and the "Green-Suits" rode off.  We were all from Michigan and Indiana and wondered why so intense?  It was nearest to Flame Lake along the trail from Chapleau to Aubrey Falls in the middle of nowhere.

 

Only 2 stops in the last 4 years looking for Trail Permits and both around Hornepayne.  An OPP with a STOP Guy.  No stops at all last season.   

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How many Prinoth Troopers are on order?

 

How many Prinoth Huskies?

 

How many Case tractors?

 

To my way of thinking the switch to Troopers has an inherently huge risk with significantly less Horsepoer as well as no Ontario grooming experience over an entire season.

 

Underpowered is not what most Operators want to deal with and overworking an engine usually results in premature failure.

 

 

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So what happened with Free loader weekend?

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8 hours ago, AC+YA said:

 

X2 -  The OPP care about giving tickets for speeding, drinking, registration, and insurance.  They want your drivers license if you qualify to receive any of the previously mentioned awards or if they still think they should get to know you better.  MNR only seemed to care about the registration and insurance last season when they stopped our group.  We had my daughter and her friend with a few of us.  They were out with a dog checking the lakes for people hiding "over the limit" fish. 

 

Years ago (2004 Super bowl day is how I remember) MNR stopped us (6 guys) and searched all our sleds and bags and called in all of our registrations in on a SAT Phone!  Took over an hour before they let us put our stuff back together and the "Green-Suits" rode off.  We were all from Michigan and Indiana and wondered why so intense?  It was nearest to Flame Lake along the trail from Chapleau to Aubrey Falls in the middle of nowhere.

 

Only 2 stops in the last 4 years looking for Trail Permits and both around Hornepayne.  An OPP with a STOP Guy.  No stops at all last season.   

Yes this is pretty pathetic! We all knew this would when the OPP disbanded our STOP officers. They care for all of the above EXCEPT our PERMITS when they are on OUR trails. If they are enforcing on OUR trails then they MUST check permits! 

 

On 19/09/2017 at 9:50 PM, bbakernbay said:

This appears to be a more common experience, OPP not enforcing Trail Permits.

 

I hope this point was raised with OPP Deputy Commissioner at AGM.

Sorry I did forget to bring that point up with him, I was more focused on the point of that there is next to NO enforcement on our trails now. 

 

2 hours ago, mcZEd382 said:

So what happened with Free loader weekend?

My gov told me it was changed to the feb 2nd, 3rd weekend. 

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On September 19, 2017 at 9:50 PM, bbakernbay said:

This appears to be a more common experience, OPP not enforcing Trail Permits.

 

I hope this point was raised with OPP Deputy Commissioner at AGM.

I was stopped in Mattawa last year too right before the river crossing as you come down the road. They had another cop at far side of town sitting in his car too, watching sleds from other direction. They were checking for permits and waved me over to his car, had a quick chat and off I went. No paper work what so ever, was just a quick visual permit check it seems. Only time stopped in past two years though. 

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7 hours ago, bbakernbay said:

How many Prinoth Troopers are on order?

 

How many Prinoth Huskies?

 

How many Case tractors?

 

To my way of thinking the switch to Troopers has an inherently huge risk with significantly less Horsepoer as well as no Ontario grooming experience over an entire season.

 

Underpowered is not what most Operators want to deal with and overworking an engine usually results in premature failure.

 

 

Somebody didn't due their homework on the troopers, they won't pull a 9 ft drag.

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9 hours ago, bbakernbay said:

How many Prinoth Troopers are on order?

 

How many Prinoth Huskies?

 

How many Case tractors?

 

To my way of thinking the switch to Troopers has an inherently huge risk with significantly less Horsepoer as well as no Ontario grooming experience over an entire season.

 

Underpowered is not what most Operators want to deal with and overworking an engine usually results in premature failure.

 

 

 

If memory serves me correctly, 10 Troopers, 5 Husky and 7 tractors. No drags were included in this years program.

 

 

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13 hours ago, soupkids said:

Somebody didn't due their homework on the troopers, they won't pull a 9 ft drag.

So you are saying there was a Prinoth Trooper grooming last season and it didn’t have sufficient pulling power with a 9’ drag?

 

I did hear that they had one in 3 different Districts doing test runs so I presume they were tested sufficiently that someone must think they are capable of doing the job.

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The drags can really vary in size and results.  However, the terrain may call for smaller lighter drags depending on what machine pulls it and the hills.

 

The old BRP groomers usually pull smaller drags, but if the snow is there in the base, cutting deeper and thus it goes slower can still make a good trail when it can setup during the night. 

 

I think the worst results come from guys trying to get the long run over quicker.  That means not cutting deep even when you can.  On a long run it can make more of a time difference than you might think.  Also, grooming during the daylight on a return trip to get back sooner doesn't always yield lasting results.

 

I am grateful that someone was available to run the groomers on these long lonely 12-16 hour runs.  Maybe groomer placement when a place like Halfway is available is the better answer to make these runs shorter by going from both ends of a trail?

 

The vast majority of OFSC Trails are really well done and a huge thanks to those making it happen.  Can't wait for retirement and being part of the solution by paying back in time & effort currency to the system I have used so much.  All I can do at this point is help mark dangerous areas and brush trails during rides.  Living & working in Southern Michigan is the problem for now.  

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Du Ya Wanna club out of Huntsville area tested a Trooper last winter, and was satisfied with the results. Not sure of the drag size used.

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How does the Trooper compare to the older BR180s in size and power?  We are lucky enough to have a 2007 Husky and 2009 Pisten Trail Bully and one of the biggest things we found was the physical size of the newer machines was a detriment at some times especially early in the season.  

 

Purely anecdotal but I believe that the trail that was created by the old BR180 we had up until 2 years ago was consistently better than what the newer machines produce.  I think part of it with the BR we had to go slow, the newer machines can go faster and it is hard to resist that urge when on the real long runs (difference between 12 and 16 hours is substantial especially for volunteers who go out after work).

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