MOTS again....

[Greggie]

District 9 came to District 1 and explained what they have done so far on MOTS. I will try to put down the major things they have done so far. All permit money goes already to the District office. From there they have a couple of workgroups such as Financial, Trails and grooming. Every club has a seat and a vote. They give every club a target on grooming hours and a fixed hourly rate. Same for the trails an fixed amount for every km of trail. The District keeps track of the budget and the real cost. If there are clubs who have less snow they can move grooming hours to other clubs. If a club want to "overspend" they can taken the money out of the "frozen bank account" what is at the District. Every club grooms when they want, does the trail work what they want and every club keeps up "their face". They do still the maintenance of the groomers and buy the parts where they feel to buy. The good thing of this is that it takes care of the clubs who are overspending. So far, so good. If I am right District 5 is not far behind District 9.

 

After the presentation, we spoke to a "OFSC" representative, I will not put his name here, and he told us yes what District 9 is doing, this is fase 1 of MOTS and also District 9 have to keep moving to be 100% compliant to MOTS. 

 

In fase 2 the responsibility of a club is:

- landowner relations

- doing trail work

- putting up signs

- taking signs down

 

Then the club can do fund raising and do with that money what they feel to do. Also organize social events, all paid by fundraising money.

 

So are we as clubs ready to loose our own input in trail work, grooming and landowner preciation? The clubs will get a budget what is approved by the workgroup. As example, every club will get $1500 for landowner appreciation but the club did in the past a catered in supper what costed in the past $7000 and now they have no money? Another one, I know a club who gives all volunteers a free trail permit. Now there is no money in the budget to do this and they can't continue this. What will be the feeling of the volunteers? if they all resign, another 275 kms of trails are gone.

Oh, by the way this club had 25 volunteers and $180 a volunteer is together $4500.

 

I don't think I don't need to keep putting up examples. It seems that there is no flexibility at OFSC on MOTS. It NEED to implemented as it is. There are lots of people who are very worried how the clubs and volunteers are taking this... There are expectations that there are several clubs who will be folded because the volunteers are leaving....

 

For sure I am forgetting things so everyone who have an opinion, please tell us or if I am wrong, correct me..,,

[Viperules700]

Gregge posting on here that volunteers got free trail permits, isn't a smart move. We have land owners in the south, that have asked for free permits and were declined and trail was closed and re routed in some cases. If word get's out that volunteers are in fact getting a free ride, it could be a disaster.  

[Greggie]

8 minutes ago, Viperules700 said:

Gregge posting on here that volunteers got free trail permits, isn't a smart move. We have land owners in the south, that have asked for free permits and were declined and trail was closed and re routed in some cases. If word get's out that volunteers are in fact getting a free ride, it could be a disaster.  

 

There are clubs who follow the rules, others not. Exemptions are there on every rule... See it as speeding, it's not allowed but done people are doing it. Also it doesn't allow you to follow his bad example......

Also that is a reason why the OFSC it trying to get more in control....

[soupkids]

Something doesn't sound right with a lot of what d9 is doing , at least in comparison to how do 12 does it.

Or maybe it's just layer and with me having more than I few I'm just not understanding it ????

[Viperules700]

7 hours ago, soupkids said:

Something doesn't sound right with a lot of what d9 is doing , at least in comparison to how do 12 does it.

Or maybe it's just layer and with me having more than I few I'm just not understanding it ????

D9 is a huge area though. Can be good snow in parts of it and other area's nothing. So if a few clubs go over in grooming hours the district will take it from clubs that have done less grooming, because of low snow. I wonder what would happen if snow was stellar and all of the clubs in district groomed to the max, then what? 

[Faceman]

Well , sort of correct interpretation of D9.

Think of it this way. You operate a corporation that has 26 sub-offices.(D9) or 12 sub-offices (OFSC) and each office has a manager who is responsible for establishing a budget for that specific branch or office. The manager sits down with his or her team and establishes the needs of that specific branch for the year. (its called a budget). That budget is then submitted to the parent office with review and consideration keeping in mind that there is only so much money available. Once your particular branches budget has been run through the ringer several times you will have a number to work with. This includes landowner stuff, clubhouse stuff etc. The parent office will set a maximum amount per category unless a review is requested.

Major work projects , where additional funding is required, requires a business plan and approach with submission to the appropriate committee for review.  

Grooming is paid for , as are driver wages and maintenance so all that is really required is trail stuff, signage etc.

Clubs that have been diligent with their spending in the past have probably already followed this sort of formula whereas clubs who have had little financial responsibility will be held accountable by "head office".

This ensures fairness across the district as each club starts on the same level.

The big hit is that we as an organization do not and will never have access to the same monies as we did in the past. Some trails will need to be closed.

[blue er]

to me a free trail permit for volunteers is getting paid, not a volunteer.

 the mots program so far seems to be the best overall plan to deal with permit sales and allocating dollars, expect some wrinkles and not everyone will be happy 

[bbakernbay]

Will many of the Volunteers who groom for no payment still want to groom when they are told what the schedule is going to be along with which trails they groom and what Groomer they are to use and where to go to get it?

 

I suspect some will say No Thanks, I'm done and others will say this now sounds like a job and I want to be paid for my hours just like the Operators in the adjacent Club.

 

Two problems result. 

 

One, you lose experienced Operators and Wrenches which is a particularly serious problem in more remote areas or where there are no others to take over.

 

Second, costs go up big time, especially as more and more grooming is done by paid Operators.

 

I doubt these important issues are factored in.

 

Thirdly, a lot of veteran volunteers are not going to particularly enjoy taking direction from some 'Newbie'.

[Greggie]

1 hour ago, bbakernbay said:

Will many of the Volunteers who groom for no payment still want to groom when they are told what the schedule is going to be along with which trails they groom and what Groomer they are to use and where to go to get it?

 

I suspect some will say No Thanks, I'm done and others will say this now sounds like a job and I want to be paid for my hours just like the Operators in the adjacent Club.

 

Two problems result. 

 

One, you lose experienced Operators and Wrenches which is a particularly serious problem in more remote areas or where there are no others to take over.

 

Second, costs go up big time, especially as more and more grooming is done by paid Operators.

 

I doubt these important issues are factored in.

 

Thirdly, a lot of veteran volunteers are not going to particularly enjoy taking direction from some 'Newbie'.

Brian,

 

Under MOTS every groomer operator get paid for every hour of grooming. They can take the money or give it back to the club and it goes to the fundraising. 

 

If the groomer operators are told what to do, you are right, the old core volunteers will most likely not accept that and resign. Most likely other will step up...

 

For groomer maintenance if I am right, there is not much in MOTS. The groomers belong to the OFSC and it's their responsibility how to handle this. Result will be that the groomer who got never maintenance will get better but the clubs who really took care of them will get les.  

 

 

 

[bbakernbay]

Thanks Greggie.

 

I never heard that all Groomer Operators were to be paid, I didn't realize that was budgeted for.  I don't see how that can be done with current permit prices.

 

There are a lot of pluses in using paid Operators providing it is affordable.

[Greggie]

3 hours ago, bbakernbay said:

Thanks Greggie.

 

I never heard that all Groomer Operators were to be paid, I didn't realize that was budgeted for.  I don't see how that can be done with current permit prices.

 

There are a lot of pluses in using paid Operators providing it is affordable.

Brian,

 

In District 9 day grooming $17 and night grooming $19 a hour. Everyone on payroll, no contract grooming....

[02Sled]

8 minutes ago, Greggie said:

Brian,

 

In District 9 day grooming $17 and night grooming $19 a hour. Everyone on payroll, no contract grooming....

 

So what is the actual fully burdened cost. As employees is there not a required employer contribution to OHIP, CPP, WSIB and EI.

[Greggie]

20 minutes ago, 02Sled said:

 

So what is the actual fully burdened cost. As employees is there not a required employer contribution to OHIP, CPP, WSIB and EI.

I think that it will be about 10-15% more everything included....

[Domino]

Its amazing that a club had the funds to give away permits.  Our local club will not even reimburse expenses incurred by volunteers using their own equipment.  I.e.  Fuel for grooming local trails, chainsaw fuel, basics....

 

Good luck finding new volunteers that are not only willing to work for free but pay to do it.

[gobills]

I think some clubs give away permits to landowners as well.  Obviously they fit it in the budget somewhere.

[Faceman]

1 hour ago, 02Sled said:

 

So what is the actual fully burdened cost. As employees is there not a required employer contribution to OHIP, CPP, WSIB and EI.

Employer- $20 or $23 depending. Night time has a premium. That's the issue with :operators giving wages back" . They still get tagged by Rev Canada.

[matt17]

Maybe it goes based on District but I can attest that not all operators are paid.  I know I am not and there was never any discussion of "giving wages back".  Our club runs strictly with volunteers, although we are reimbursed for costs i.e. fuel.  

 

[Greggie]

6 minutes ago, matt17 said:

Maybe it goes based on District but I can attest that not all operators are paid.  I know I am not and there was never any discussion of "giving wages back".  Our club runs strictly with volunteers, although we are reimbursed for costs i.e. fuel.  

 

Matt, 

Next year will be different...

[Greggie]

7 minutes ago, matt17 said:

Maybe it goes based on District but I can attest that not all operators are paid.  I know I am not and there was never any discussion of "giving wages back".  Our club runs strictly with volunteers, although we are reimbursed for costs i.e. fuel.  

 

 

You are right, a volunteer who likes to volunteer and gives the money back to the club, the deduction are gone....

[Big Pete]

During theD-9 presentation that was made to the D-1 meeting, D-9 clearly stated that it was a district decision to go with paid operators on  a central payroll. There were many reasons but a few were a standardized system across the district ( ie employees vs volunteers vs 3rd party contractor), standardized shift lengths (10-12 hrs and not to exceed 14 hrs) and the big one was a standardized Health and Safety policy across the district. To support this they have a full time operations person, a full time administrator and a part time clerk. Total 2.5 paid in addition to the operators. 

[Big Pete]

1 hour ago, Domino said:

Its amazing that a club had the funds to give away permits.  Our local club will not even reimburse expenses incurred by volunteers using their own equipment.  I.e.  Fuel for grooming local trails, chainsaw fuel, basics....

 

Good luck finding new volunteers that are not only willing to work for free but pay to do it.

Domino, does your club have problems recruiting volunteers to help? Does your club do any volunteer recognition in appreciation of the time and monetary contributions of your members that might offset the out of pocket expenses?

[FreezerBurnt]

Do some clubs not raise $$$$$ anymore?

 

I know we raise somewhere near $15,000 from raffles to trail map sponsorships etc every season

 

This is the money used if there are club functions such as appreciation suppers

 

The good thing is we have won free meal for 50 people which we use for the club end of season dinner and 50hrs of volounteer work through Teen Challenge fundraiser ride the past 4 yrs as the club that raised the most for this ride

 

Giving away permits to all club volounteers is just so wrong

 

$7000 for Landowner dinner????? Filet Mignon,Champage dinner??

 

Our Family day and Xmas parties are potlucks everyone brings whatever

 

Trail permit $$$$$ stays for trails and grooming not appreciation gratuities

 

Looks like some clubs have been living on teh gravy train a bit too long while thankfully most have tightened their purse strings or always knew where the money comes from and did the right thing all along

[bbakernbay]

Our Club reimburses for Kms travelled and rightly so.

 

In my opinion that is an absolute necessity, the amount of Kms driven by Club Ops Mgr is staggering keeping 3 Groomers maintained when they are 50 Kms apart (one-way).

 

[FreezerBurnt]

2 minutes ago, bbakernbay said:

Our Club reimburses for Kms travelled.

 

In my opinion that is an absolute necessity, the amount of Kms driven by Club Ops Mgr is staggering.

 

 

 

That makes sense as you said the mileage some excutives/managers do for the club

[Domino]

On 2017-02-26 at 8:18 PM, Big Pete said:

Domino, does your club have problems recruiting volunteers to help? Does your club do any volunteer recognition in appreciation of the time and monetary contributions of your members that might offset the out of pocket expenses?

 

It appears we have several new volunteers but we have lost several others.  There is appreciation awards and land owner appreciation.  

 

Since the OFSC will not fund any grooming that is not done with a commercial groomer, local trails are not prioritized.  I know several volunteers that are ok supporting the club by not demanding re-imbursment.  However, it is not a consistant or fair system when this is not done across the OFSC.  

 

In the past, clubs had their own Scandics, ATV, Argos etc to conduct local trail brushing and grooming. We seem to be going backwards.   I am hoping that MOTS will rectify this at least in part.