Am I "Part of the Problem"

[gobills]

Private is the only way to go imo.  Ie.  Specific camps in the north with lots of land and a liability form on your way in.

[revrnd]

How many younger riders are going to drive a day each way to access the trails in NORTHERN Ontario? As folks have posted miles and miles of ungroomed mining & logging roads up there, but in reality how many long track riders do we see when we ride up there? Not many.

 

I doubt the sno x wannabes having any interest in driving further than than cottage country to ride. 

[bbakernbay]

I am sure that our Insurance Provider and the OFSC (because of large self-insurance fund) would be very wary of getting into the Off-Trail alternative for various risk management issues.

[gobills]

10 minutes ago, revrnd said:

How many younger riders are going to drive a day each way to access the trails in NORTHERN Ontario? As folks have posted miles and miles of ungroomed mining & logging roads up there, but in reality how many long track riders do we see when we ride up there? Not many.

 

I doubt the sno x wannabes having any interest in driving further than than cottage country to ride. 

Why do you say younger??  Mining roads are not the same as a let's call it powder zone or bowl area.

 

Agree with the sno xers....

[northstar]

Lots of crown land just north of Orillia lots in Huntsville and port loring

[johnsazzr]

1 hour ago, Nutter said:

I don't get why everyone feels the clubs/OFSC should be trying to obtain, insure and most likely regulate areas for people to off trail ride, isn't enough we already go to the lengths we do to provide trails  ? IMO the last thing we need is to be caretakers of an even more risky segment of the sport.  If people want to off trail ride they can find their own places and even start their own club or business doing it, as has been done in Wawa, where they have lots of crown land that allows motorsport access, with variable terrain and snow amounts that fits the bill.  

 

Adam it's up to the rider to insure they are not trespassing, so if as you said you've made mistakes then yes you are part of the problem, or at least were if you have truly learned from those mistakes.  The 150hp sled with a 1.75 paddle track on trail isn't doing any favors in keeping grooming costs down or in helping establish a sturdy long lasting trail base ...... sorry man but you asked for opinions. 

+1....the OFSC will never assume the responsiility and liability to find land let alone manage it....nor should they....

[johnsazzr]

1 hour ago, gobills said:

Totally agree about it progressing.  It's going to be hard given the changing dynamic of sleds in general.  Also all of the advertisements(all manufactures) and shows(snowtrax) show every rider hanging off the side of their sled on ever corner.  So in some way I blame them but it's all on the rider in the end how they drive the sled.

 

I think there needs to be sanctioned off trail riding area set out in the province.  Designated by the government haha good luck right!!!

 

I see it changing and then this will give the new snowbikes  a great area to go and play.

Never gonna happen...its the industry driving the need for aggressive off trail  riding when in practicality it can only exist in northern ontario.....the govt does not care and they should not...other than Ganaraska forest ...where can you also find aggressive off trail riding for ATVs and dirt bikes????  same situation...it has to be a business model that can financially support it...a private land owner who decided to volunteer their land for such a dangerous sport would be nuts....the potential liability would be limitless....insurance cost unimaginable...

[matt17]

As someone who both volunteers with the local club here in Hornepayne and from Wawa originally, who also owns a long track sled, I think the model they have developed in Wawa would be difficult to replicate.  Wawa has the perfect mix of terrain (100s of km of power lines all interconnected, 10000+ acre treeless area all on crown land), large volumes of snow, and most importantly dedicated volunteers with a vested interest in developing the area (the Jones brothers who run the local Polaris dealership).  As Skidooboy has commented before the area for off trail riding needs to be huge as after an area has been torn up, and it doesn't take much, it is not as much fun to ride until there have been several feet of new snow.  Where that leaves us as a sport this side of the mountains I am not sure.  

 

I am sure there are other areas which have similar characteristics but the closer they are to the major population bases the volume of people would quickly overwhelm the riding area.  

[Spanky]

2 hours ago, Nutter said:

I don't get why everyone feels the clubs/OFSC should be trying to obtain, insure and most likely regulate areas for people to off trail ride, isn't enough we already go to the lengths we do to provide trails  ? IMO the last thing we need is to be caretakers of an even more risky segment of the sport.  If people want to off trail ride they can find their own places and even start their own club or business doing it, as has been done in Wawa, where they have lots of crown land that allows motorsport access, with variable terrain and snow amounts that fits the bill.  

 

Adam it's up to the rider to insure they are not trespassing, so if as you said you've made mistakes then yes you are part of the problem, or at least were if you have truly learned from those mistakes.  The 150hp sled with a 1.75 paddle track on trail isn't doing any favors in keeping grooming costs down or in helping establish a sturdy long lasting trail base ...... sorry man but you asked for opinions. 

 

Well said Rick.

[rageit]

The ofsc can't even provide divided trails in southern ontario which should have been done ten years ago, how can anyone expect them to have anything to do with off trail riding.

[Spanky]

1 hour ago, AdamGamble said:

Thanks for your volunteering time, if I have rode where you help I appreciate it emmensily, but that's a terrible response. Very "I'm going home and taking my ball too" i get it it's not for everyone. 

 

I didn't see anything wrong with his response.  Its his time, he can volunteer or not volunteer as he sees fit.

 

I don't see why the OFSC needs to be involved or organize off-trail areas, they are a trails organization.  If the off-trail group actually makes up the majority of new sled sales, then don't look to burden current volunteers to provide it for you.  Get organized, find the land, obtain permission, and insure yourself. 

[johnsazzr]

1 hour ago, gobills said:

Private is the only way to go imo.  Ie.  Specific camps in the north with lots of land and a liability form on your way in.

 

 

yup and yup....if you are willing to pay and can trailer to the north...thats where the potential will be...just like haliburton forest....

[UsedtoSkidoo]

2 hours ago, jrhz06 said:

Paddle size can be an issue but whats worse. Someone using a 1.75 paddle that is smooth on the throttle or someone with a 1.25 paddle that pins it every opportunity? Yes the bigger paddle can do more damage but the rider is still the one who's squeezing the throttle.

You Are correct. I never hammer it out of the corner but I don't scrub speed either. I'm teaching my son how to do this so he doesn't ride like an asshat.

[PISTON LAKE CRUISER]

1 hour ago, barberch said:

People ride off trail all the time. We don't need the OFSC to get involved to make it so that people know where to ride and where not to ride. They already tell people to stay on the trail.

 I suppose we could ask them to post more signs for areas that are not privately owned and its OK to ride where ever you want, but will they be able to get the insurance to cover that?

On the pipelines and corridors, are the people/ governments responsible for the land, OK with people riding all over it? Who is liable for anything that happens?  

Maybe there could be another pass/ group for people to buy to cover the extra insurance that is required, but i can't see how it could be implemented.

I understand what you are saying and agree with some of it. Personally I have in the past and still put quite a bit of time into staking and signing a trail section in southern Ontario. I like the majority of club volunteers have some grey hair. I do not find your idea of having to post more signs (for not privately owned areas)than I already do now appealing.

I believe that if the off trail riders of whom I believe the majority are a lot younger than I, really want this, they should be the ones that volunteer their time to make it happen. The businesses in the northern Ontario who would benefit from this  should also be apart of organizing it.

Just my opinion. I'm not knocking the idea.

[skidooboy]

the segment is not driven by the mfg'rs it is driven by the riders, and product buyers (ie: US). this all started with the mountain segment, and people traveling to the western u.s and Canada and REALLY ENJOYING FREE RIDING, in open public land. those area are shrinking by the way as more and more areas are designated wilderness.

 

once we had a taste of this style of riding, remote wilderness experience, offtrail, mixed with some trail riding, with little to no fighting sled traffic, and seeing a metric ton of sled, riders, good and bad... we started looking at areas closer to home to do this, instead of driving 30+ hours one way for a week trip, or flying and renting.

 

the U.P. of Mich, the north and east of superior, the gaspe, ect... are GREAT for this, IF YOU WANTED TO PUT THE TIME IN TO FIND THE AREAS TO RIDE.  with the segment growing, and businesses getting involved, now it is harder to get to the fresh untracked stuff FIRST. with people and businesses publishing "honey holes" it makes it harder for EVERYONE to be able to enjoy that type of riding, because once it is tracked, or rained on or warmed up... the real fun riding for the purists IS DONE, GONE, wait for another storm or next year. 

 

it really is like fishing or hunting, if you go on the interwebs, and post exactly where you are... the world can figure it out with google earth, and landmarks. and your honey hole is GONE! I understand businesses wanting to profit from this. but, for those of us that put the time in, found, loops and kept areas brushed to get from one spot to the next, looping on unused bush roads ect.. it is bittersweet. even as recently as 5 years ago, (we have been riding offtrail, and exploring since 2004, hard to believe we have been doing this for 13 seasons), we NEVER saw ANYONE but, the odd trapper, or fisherman in the back country.

 

now some of the loops we "found" and started to use, that hadn't been touched in years, are now designated as club trails, and are groomed. making us go futher, and further from town, and finding new areas.

 

in the last 2 years the segment has EXPLODED! And now, it is a race to get to our favorite areas before someone else gets to it.

 

you cant scout these areas "in season" as the tracks "burn it" for the year. you save the areas until it is deep enough, and have at it. unfortunately many people scout these areas for themselves, clients ect... and it never really gets GREAT, like it used to be, before the segment exploded. it is a fad, and it too shall pass.

 

I think the biggest reason this year we are seeing so many issues and complaints is, the snow depths, the warm ups, and those in the metro areas that thought this was the best new thing, for them and their buddies, are realizing there are no "real areas" for this segment in mid central, and lower southern Ontario but, they want to ride, so they go where the snow is, and ride where "they want to". the snow is in smaller pockets this year, and the thaws have hurt. and these guys, like most trail riders, DO NOT WANT TO TRAILER, OR DRIVE LONG DISTANCES TO RIDE THEIR SLEDS. 

 

so you get what we have here.

 

 I don't have a solution but, you cant just "set up areas to ride" this is a one off, ride it and it is done for the year. you cant groom it and make it better. once those that got in this segment on a whim realize this, the segment will have a down turn, and will correct itself.

 

as far as setting up private camps, and areas, it can be done but, who owns millions of acres to make this type of riding available for multiple groups? it is crown lands that most people talk about, and that land is for everyone to enjoy, not just outfitters to profit from, and keep out the public. (very similar argument for the fishing/hunting, outfitter issues). wawa has a good marketing plan in place, and it draws people there to do there thing. for me, and my group.... I don't want anything to do with fighting people to get to the hydro line, rock cuts, ect.... I want to be away from those riders, and what they bring (tracked snow).   

 

understand this marketing is for bringing tourist dollars to wawa, not just for the benefit of jones powersports. gord, and russ, have busted their ass on this project, and the only thing they get may be an extra sled or so sales, some rental money, and some repair money. the people aren't flocking there and only lining their pockets. the Jones' make very little extra off this, for ALOT OF EXTRA WORK ON THEIR PART. they have this project, AND the ofsc trails to upkeep. they have ALOT on their plate and should be thanked by the region, and community for this.

 

Manitouwadge had this marketing before the BIG COLLAPSE, it could have worked but, they are even further from a metro centre than wawa. when they lost their club, and ofsc trails. they lost the marketing hook.

 

our issue this year is the weather and small pockets of good rideable snow. if this was a "normal year" with 95% or more of all Ontario trails open, you may not see this much of an issue. (I could be wrong but, that is my opinion).

 

Ski

[AdamGamble]

So after 40 replies, in summary it seems on this site anyways that;

A) The Clubs and OFSC aren't remotely interested in the idea. 

B.) it's the riders responsibility to know where is private/crown/permissible land to go off trail

C) it takes a large amount of snow and land to ride off trail and once it's been tracked it's toast. 

D) insurance and liability is a nightmare 

 

I guess backcountry riding in Ontario will remain an excluded group of explorers that are willing to travel way north in search of glory. 

 

I think I am fine with this, a 8-12 hour drive to me isn't a big deal and I find the further I go the better the riding is. 

 

The only issue s sue is we are going to see a lot more trails close and lot more land owner complaints which I'm sure the clubs are used to by now. 

[gobills]

6 minutes ago, AdamGamble said:

So after 40 replies, in summary it seems on this site anyways that;

A) The Clubs and OFSC aren't remotely interested in the idea. 

B.) it's the riders responsibility to know where is private/crown/permissible land to go off trail

C) it takes a large amount of snow and land to ride off trail and once it's been tracked it's toast. 

D) insurance and liability is a nightmare 

 

I guess backcountry riding in Ontario will remain an excluded group of explorers that are willing to travel way north in search of glory. 

 

I think I am fine with this, a 8-12 hour drive to me isn't a big deal and I find the further I go the better the riding is. 

 

The only issue s sue is we are going to see a lot more trails close and lot more land owner complaints which I'm sure the clubs are used to by now. 

Have you posted somewhere else to get other opinions?

[skidooboy]

6 minutes ago, AdamGamble said:

So after 40 replies, in summary it seems on this site anyways that;

A) The Clubs and OFSC aren't remotely interested in the idea. 

B.) it's the riders responsibility to know where is private/crown/permissible land to go off trail

C) it takes a large amount of snow and land to ride off trail and once it's been tracked it's toast. 

D) insurance and liability is a nightmare 

 

I guess backcountry riding in Ontario will remain an excluded group of explorers that are willing to travel way north in search of glory. 

 

I think I am fine with this, a 8-12 hour drive to me isn't a big deal and I find the further I go the better the riding is. 

 

The only issue s sue is we are going to see a lot more trails close and lot more land owner complaints which I'm sure the clubs are used to by now. 

you got it, and understand it. welcome to back country riding. now, go find your own play areas.  Ski

[Techdenis007]

4 hours ago, Blake G said:

Problem and opportunity can be two sides of the same coin.

 

Very wise words from a very wise gentleman.  Given the proper context, once can become the other, and vice versa.

 

 

3 hours ago, AdamGamble said:

I just like to have open conversations with open minded people. Not closed minds, closed doors and closed ears. Honestly thanks for the response no need to say sorry this is a healthy conversation that I feel needs to be happening to save this sport. 

 

I reluctantly agree, there are far too many closed minds closed doors and closed ears in my local club.  I'm not about to go selling off all my short-tracks to get a Freeride, it's not my thing... but I respect the style and understand it enough, working at a sled dealership.  LOTS of crossover sleds and the like in my area, the local chain of lakes, hydro lines, pipelines, logging roads make it a haven for such riding.  Wawa is doing it right, but Ski said it best.... once it's beat, you can't fix it, just have to wait until it's covered with fresh snow again.

 

I have to agree about the OFSC not needing to be part of the new trend, it does what it does, and well enough for the most part.  The OFSC can however take part in promoting using its trails to access off-trail riding (and amenities, resorts, etc.) which in turn might help promote politically correct trail use, AND off-trail use.  There can be some good come from this kind of discussion, if put in the right arena.

 

[AdamGamble]

13 minutes ago, gobills said:

Have you posted somewhere else to get other opinions?

No, I don't know of anywhere else that has so many heavily involved individuals. This site the "OC" seems to contain the "OGs" (original gangsters lol) of organized  sledding. Lots of knowledge on this site. 

[DaveTess]

Let me pose this to you all.

 

Would you purchase a surf board to ride in Ontario?

Would you purchase a Bob Sled to play with and ride in Ontario?

 

 

Off Trail Sled if there's no place to ride them for what they're built? And then expect the 40 year old trail system to change just because you bought one?

You buy a cottage on a non motorized lake. Do you buy a motor boat and expect everybody else to change?

Why do you purchase a side by side and expect the multi use trails to change just because you bought one? Can you imagine a side by side ripping down the multi use trail with horses and walkers?

If you buy a Mountain Sled take it where it's designed for. The hills and Mountains. Not some poor farmers field that has kindly allowed us to use their land for our enjoyment and TRAIL.

I don't buy a dragster to go back and forth to Toronto. Would be nice and quick but really!

 

I was taught you buy a boat you take it to a lake. You buy a trailer you take it to a camp ground. You buy an ATV you take it to the approved ATV trails. You buy a Mountain Sled, Long Track Deep Lugs take it where it's designed. It's definitely not a trail sled and that is what we have here in Ontario. Stop being so greedy. You bought the sled no one twisted your arm. Unless you live in a cave for the last 40 years, Ontario is a Trail Riding Sled System. No Mountains here!

 

Why do some seem to think just because you bought one and the market is pushing them with there commercials and shows that the 40 year old trail system designed for seeing this wonderful province on safe trails has to change to fit you. You bought the sled now you want to have the clubs build mountains so you can play. Then when the do you'll bitch that the pass cost has to up.

 

Come on people this trail system was designed years ago for 50hp sled at 50km's an hour. Not 200 horse power turbo Mountain Sleds to rip up and ruin the hard work the groomers and other volunteers do in one pass.

 

That's just selfish.

 

I would love to see the demographics on the purchases of these sleds. I can only imagine who's purchasing these things. Rant Over!!

[skidooboy]

2 up, I see your point on the surfboard, atv, boat. but, what you need to understand is the province is HUGE, and there are mountainous areas, Abitibi, Algoma, Agawa, the superior north and east areas have HUGE elevation changes.  you may not know this, or go to the region or care about this region. but, offtrail opportunities are available and mountain sleds are REQUIRED to ride in some of these remote areas.

you have to look at the province as a whole, and not say just because you don't see the need for mountain sleds, they are not needed/wanted.

 

it is not the sled that is the issue, it is the person controlling the throttle that does the damage to the trails, and rides off trail where they shouldn't. education, and enforcement are the only fixes. Ski

 

[stoney]

4 hours ago, AdamGamble said:

Appreciate your opinion. 10 years ago a 1 inch lug was big. Now a 1.25 is standard/small and 1.35 is normal. I agree that as of now it is up to the rider and rider alone to insure himself his machine and where he is riding is not trespassing. What I am saying is this sport can and will change in the upcoming years with the market that has being totally taken over by on off trail machines. Why not embrace this change plan for it, get ahead of it. Your example of Wawa is perfect. Yes most clubs especially south of Algonquin have a limited amount of land like this, but northern Ontario is full of it. Why not

promote this new way of riding in Ontario. I just like to have open conversations with open minded people. Not closed minds, closed doors and closed ears. Honestly thanks for the response no need to say sorry this is a healthy conversation that I feel needs to be happening to save this sport. 

 

A very nice refreshing approach and attitude !

 

3 hours ago, barberch said:

People ride off trail all the time. We don't need the OFSC to get involved to make it so that people know where to ride and where not to ride. They already tell people to stay on the trail.

 I suppose we could ask them to post more signs for areas that are not privately owned and its OK to ride where ever you want, but will they be able to get the insurance to cover that?

On the pipelines and corridors, are the people/ governments responsible for the land, OK with people riding all over it? Who is liable for anything that happens?  

Maybe there could be another pass/ group for people to buy to cover the extra insurance that is required, but i can't see how it could be implemented.

 

Exactly, its been done for years, only difference now is it has become more mainstream, and causing a bigger problems in the South with people not respecting the land they are on.....

The OFSC needs to focus all their attention on the current trail system, before taking on another adventure.....the current trails will and does need much attention to keep things progressing in the "right" direction, plus how does a group go about trying to attain insurance for off trail activities....look at the hoops that need to be jumped through to offer groomed trails.

[Yukon]

Well said Team2UP..

 

The clubs and Volunteers are involved to build trails and have trails. It's a trail building organization... 

 

I understand and can see the enjoyment in off trail riding. One of my good friends rides both respectfully... But, there just isn't enough Crown land South of Sudbury to be able to handle the numbers... It would still be a struggle for clubs to hang onto trails. 

 

As someone else mentioned earlier a private Boondocking park would be key for those that can't or won't head north...

 

Secret Boondocking Area in Wawa is being advertised by the OFSC, Craig Nicholson and Northern Ontario travel . Amongst other media outlets.

 

 

[barberch]

2 hours ago, PISTON LAKE CRUISER said:

I understand what you are saying and agree with some of it. Personally I have in the past and still put quite a bit of time into staking and signing a trail section in southern Ontario. I like the majority of club volunteers have some grey hair. I do not find your idea of having to post more signs (for not privately owned areas)than I already do now appealing.

I believe that if the off trail riders of whom I believe the majority are a lot younger than I, really want this, they should be the ones that volunteer their time to make it happen. The businesses in the northern Ontario who would benefit from this  should also be apart of organizing it.

Just my opinion. I'm not knocking the idea.

I agree. I only mention the signs because we can't get people to adhere to the signs we already have telling them to stay on the   groomed trail!   Kind of tongue in cheek...