2017 Permits on Sale - Who will be first

[PISTON LAKE CRUISER]

FIRM grooming scheduling is not really practical. You have a week of extreme cold and the trails see very little traffic and don't need grooming. If you send a groomer out to push around snow with the consistency of sugar on a trail that doesn't need grooming just because of a schedule doesn't make sense. Heavy rain has been coming down all day. Not likely a good thing to send out a groomer just because it's scheduled.

Firm can have caveats built in to deal with weather or snow cicumstances but it may have been the wrong term to use. I used firm as opposed to whenever the operators feel like it. There is a lot of wasted daytime grooming that has been done in our area over the years IMHO and I'm sure in many other areas. I'm a firm believer that there should be a $ penalty for daytime grooming when conditions dictate conversely a $ reward for night time grooming.

[02Sled]

Big Pete..you can't compare Ontario permit prices to Quebec prices. Apples to oranges. Theirs includes insurance. I would gladly pay Quebec prices in Ontario if we got our insurance included however laws in Ontario regarding liability are different

[Baylaker]

http://kitchener.ctvnews.ca/mobile/video?clipId=963912

We'll try this...

[bbakernbay]

Big Pete..you can't compare Ontario permit prices to Quebec prices. Apples to oranges. Theirs includes insurance. I would gladly pay Quebec prices in Ontario if we got our insurance included however laws in Ontario regarding liability are different

The Quebec insurance included in the Permit is ONLY liability insurance.

I don't know what the refund amount is now for non-Quebec residents who fill in the rebate form along with proof of their liability insurance.

About 10 years ago I recall the rebate was around $35.

Certainly agree that it saves money for Quebec sledders but apparently is not practical in Ontario due to different laws and legal system and probably a big and successful lobby by the Ontario lawyers.

[Big Pete]

I believe the insurance rebate is $50 if you fill the form correctly and file it on time. Otherwise SOL.

As to the comparability, I see no material difference. Both provide the privelidge of riding world class trails. I never hear the reason people ride Quebec is because of the insurance included. They seem to be able to demand a better value proposition than we can in Ontario. Some would say that Que provides a superior rider experience but is it because the extra permit revenue goes back on the snow in the form of more groomers/grooming. It's almost a circular argument. Higher permit price means more money which leads to more grooming which justifies higher permit price.

[bbakernbay]

It should be pointed out that Quebec Snowmobiling gets huge $$$ from the Federal Government, which unfortunately is not the same for Ontario or most of the other provinces.

I don't know what the Quebec government contributes but I would bet that it is more than the $1.5 million the OFSC gets from Ontario government.

Also their QPP trail permit enforcement certainly is more than the OPP, particularly in the way they support the Quebec Clubs Trail Patrol by issuing charges based upon Trail Patrol reports.

In my opinion, our enforcement is a problem that is getting worse by the year.

Our penalties are considerably less than Quebec too, sufficiently so that it is almost no deterrent, not in Quebec though.

Are we still comparing Apples and Oranges?

I have given 3 or 4 significant reasons why the field isn't level.

[bbakernbay]

FCMQ 2016 - 2017

RATES

“Operation of snowmobile on a Federation trail is strictly forbidden unless the operator has a prescribed trail permit.” (FCMQ By-Laws, article 11)

Permit prices for season 2016-2017

The price of a trail permit includes the cost of the liability insurance, defined as mandatory under article 19 of the Act respecting off-highway vehicles, as well as all applicable taxes.

315 $ for an annual trail permit purchased on or before December 9, 2015

385 $ for an annual trail permit purchased after December 9, 2015

560 $ for an annual trail permit sold on trail*

230 $ for an annual trail permit for antique snowmobiles (1996 and older)

215 $ for a 7-day trail permit

130 $ for a 3-day trail permit

60 $ for a 1-day trail permit

570 $ for an annual trail permit for a rental snowmobile

Note their Classics are 1996 model year versus 1999 for OFSC

[02Sled]

For the OFSC classic permit rather than suddenly disqualify sleds that were already eligible ie 16 yrs old by upping the age to 20 years the eligible year was frozen at 99 until they reach 20 years and then it will continue to be 20 yrs or older.

We really do need some enforcement and penalties with some teeth though. As it is today it is extremely weak

[mczed38]

Folks some data if you wish to compare Quebec and Ontario funding models:

 

One:

http://news.gc.ca/web/article-en.do?nid=1034429

 

Two:

http://www.marketwired.com/press-release/government-canada-lends-support-six-snowmobile-clubs-trail-improvements-abitibi-temiscamingue-1989209.htm

 

 

Three:

http://montrealgazette.com/business/cold-comfort-snowmobiling-provides-fun-jobs-and-wintertime-revenue?__lsa=8e36-6a4a

 

""In January, La Presse reported the Economic Development Agency of Canada for the Regions of Quebec has given $21.2 million in non-repayable financial contributions to dozens of Quebec snowmobile clubs to help fund 167 projects between 2006 and 2014.

Most of those projects involved the purchase of snow-grooming machines and repairs or upgrades to snowmobile trails.

And it includes $2.4 million that Quebec clubs are now receiving under the National Recreational Trails Program. Announced last year, the two-year federal program will invest $10 million in projects to improve and expand snowmobile, all-terrain vehicle and non-motorized trail systems across Canada. Funding for those projects is matched by recipient clubs.

Taxpayer rights groups called the grants for snowmobiling a waste of taxpayer money.

Critics also noted the EDAC is headed by Denis Lebel, the senior Tory cabinet minister expected to run for re-election later this year in the Roberval — Lac St. Jean riding, where snowmobiling is highly popular.

However, an aide to Lebel defended the grants.

“By lending assistance to snowmobile clubs, (EDAC) is helping to position Quebec as a prime destination for recreational tourism while sustaining the economic vitality of the regions,” Vincent Rabault wrote in an email to the Montreal Gazette.

He called the repair, improvement and upkeep of snowmobile trails “a necessity” for the industry and its ability to attract foreign tourists.

“The federal government gets it,” Boivin said. “I only wish the Quebec government did, too.”

According to Boivin, the province collects $40 for every snowmobile license plate or about $6.98 million annually. But it reinvests only a small percentage of that money in infrastructure projects through regional tourism associations.

According to a spokesperson for the Ministère du Tourisme du Québec, the government contributed $125,192 for bridge building and other projects in 2013- 2014. The province also contributes roughly half of the $200,000 that its regional partners and the snowmobile industry spends annually on advertising in Quebec and abroad.

That pales in comparison to Ontario, where the provincial government has invested nearly $50 million in the snowmobile industry over the past 20 years.

“It’s amazing what the snowmobiling clubs have done in Quebec with the peanuts they get from your provincial government,” said Craig Nicholson, a communications officer for the Ontario Federation of Snowmobile Clubs and the host of a popular radio show on snowmobiling in Ontario.

According to Nicholson, Ontario and Quebec dominant the $8-billion Canadian snowmobiling industry.

The two neighbours notably account for more than half of the country’s 112,000 kms of organized trails and 735 clubs, and nearly 80 per cent of spending on new snowmobiles, trailers, clothing, as well as on gas, food and lodging.

Four:
http://www.newswire.ca/news-releases/the-ministere-des-transports-will-collaborate-with-the-fcmq-towards-the-sustainability-of-the-snowmobile-industry-in-quebec-512575151.html

 

Finally from the Ours Blancs snowmobile club financial summary for 2016 season posted to their Facebook page:

Development:
Income vs expenditure for the club the polar bears:
520 members to $ 158 = $ 82,160
Grant trails mtq = $ 110,000
Total Income for the maintenance of trails = $ 192,160
Expenditure
Maintenance of trails average of 2,500 hours at $ 75 / HR = $ 187,500
Balance = $ 4,660
With this balance of $ 4,660 the club has to pay the mechanic, the costs of operations of the garage, the monthly payments of reimbursement of the machinery, the upgrade paths (Bridges, culverts, signage, etc) and the general administration .
If you have any concerns regarding the sound management of your club, please do not hesitate to communicate with the president, Sylvain Marchand at 819-441-1444 or president@oursblancs.com
Good end of the season.

[PISTON LAKE CRUISER]

Received an email today saying my permits were shipped today. Better get the sled started!

[Blake G]

Same here. Fire it up.

[Baylaker]

That makes three of us!

[02Sled]

No frost in the ground yet but the forecast for muskoka Parry Sound for Sunday is high 11 and low of -1

[Old Sledder]

Ok, this is too funny, last year I was one of the slenders that did not receive any of the snowmobile mags. This year first magazine has arrived BEFORE I ordered this years permit.

Go figure

[sledjunk]

Ok, this is too funny, last year I was one of the slenders that did not receive any of the snowmobile mags. This year first magazine has arrived BEFORE I ordered this years permit.

Go figure

The magazines are a year behind.  In other words, this year you are receiving the magazines from last year's permit.

[Old Sledder]

Thanks, funny though I received them this first year I purchased in in 2012

[gobills]

Just getting you set for a great season to come.

[Muskoka_Mike]

I received the email today from the OFSC that my permit was shipped. The funny part is that my permit arrived this morning before the email. I have to say, the pink permit looks good on my sled.

[Baylaker]

Really? Pink? Gona stand out like a sore thumb on my all black sled...

[PISTON LAKE CRUISER]

10 hours ago, Baylaker said:

Really? Pink? Gona stand out like a sore thumb on my all black sled...

That's good. Easier for those of us that are checking sleds for permits.

[ArcticCrusher]

16 hours ago, PISTON LAKE CRUISER said:

Received an email today saying my permits were shipped today. Better get the sled started!

Same here.

[KCC]

Received our 2 trail permits in the mail today!

[Elliotgroomer]

Got mine in the mail today,

[Techdenis007]

22 hours ago, Muskoka_Mike said:

I received the email today from the OFSC that my permit was shipped. The funny part is that my permit arrived this morning before the email. I have to say, the pink permit looks good on my sled.

 

Should look nice on my maroon F Dlx 1999..... " ... we're gonna party like it's 19-99 .... "

 

We're ordering the permit for Doris26 next week, less rush for the other 2 as they're Classic permits so we have an extra month to get the discount. 

[SpiritWalker]

I am ready to order but the rest of my crew have new sleds coming. They need the vin before November 1st. They should have an option for people that are buy new sleds. Hopefully it all works out.