2017 Permits on Sale - Who will be first

[DaveTess]

Just ordered ours. Bring on the season. Cant wait.

[AdamGamble]

Got # 76

[Muskoka_Mike]

I got 67.

Also, I found out that the OFSC opened up the permit sales a few days early as a dry run to root out any problems. So far, no problems to report. "They continue to monitor the performance as eager buyers have discovered they can already buy their permits" Way to go "eager buyers" lol.

[bbakernbay]

2 more for HCSA. 49 and 50

With the new system, I don't believe the Clubs have much to gain by having purchasers select their Club, except for the satisfaction of knowing that your particular Club has xxxx supporters.

In our case we have an old Constitution that makes everyone that buys an OFSC Trail Permit from our Club is automatically a Club Member for purposes of attending, nominating and voting for Club Directors.

As I understand it, each Club or Grooming Association receives revenue from Trail Permits based upon 2 criteria, the first being hours groomed and secondly, an amount based upon length of their trail system, with less per km of natural trail.

Last year there was some minor benefit in the Club getting 30% of the gross Trail Permit revenue paid fairly early but that gets clawed back if the Club's grooming hours are lower than average.

I will let others better versed in this to chime in but "Buy Where You Ride" is not really relevant as it once was.

Short and sweet, if Club X sells zero Trail Permits, I believe they still get the same revenue as Club Y who sells 1,500 Trail Permits if both Clubs groomed the same total hours and have equal Kim's of Trail.

Other Trail Permit revenues can come to a Club for reasons as may be determined by the District Committee.

[Elliotgroomer]

#111

[Micar]

216 and 217 Highland Rovers.

[slomo]

With the new system, I don't believe the Clubs have much to gain by having purchasers select their Club, except for the satisfaction of knowing that your particular Club has xxxx supporters.

In our case we have an old Constitution that makes everyone that buys an OFSC Trail Permit from our Club is automatically a Club Member for purposes of attending, nominating and voting for Club Directors.

As I understand it, each Club or Grooming Association receives revenue from Trail Permits based upon 2 criteria, the first being hours groomed and secondly, an amount based upon length of their trail system, with less per km of natural trail.

Last year there was some minor benefit in the Club getting 30% of the gross Trail Permit revenue paid fairly early but that gets clawed back if the Club's grooming hours are lower than average.

I will let others better versed in this to chime in but "Buy Where You Ride" is not really relevant as it once was.

Short and sweet, if Club X sells zero Trail Permits, I believe they still get the same revenue as Club Y who sells 1,500 Trail Permits if both Clubs groomed the same total hours and have equal Kim's of Trail.

Other Trail Permit revenues can come to a Club for reasons as may be determined by the District Committee.

 

Is there still a minimum of 50 permits for a club to be viable? Remember D'ville was almost short a couple of years ago.

[rayclar]

just ordered mine this morning 254, 

[Nunz]

Just ordered our two passes 278 and 279, Picked Snowcrest and Polar Bear Riders for the clubs.

 

Can't wait to get this season started...

[Mossy]

Is there still a minimum of 50 permits for a club to be viable? Remember D'ville was almost short a couple of years ago.

I order one of my three every year.

[RAMSOMAIR]

How do i order a permit on line if the sled hasn't been delivered yet? Therefore no VIN and no reg numbers.

[ArcticCrusher]

How do i order a permit on line if the sled hasn't been delivered yet? Therefore no VIN and no reg numbers.

Couple of years ago I put in default numbers and then went back and edited the profile one I knew the numbers.

[Nunz]

Couple of years ago I put in default numbers and then went back and edited the profile one I knew the numbers.

That's what I did last year, same thing and it worked fine.

[zrtkat]

Hello everyone I have a few Questions hopefully someone will know the answer ,we buy 3 permits we have 2 new sleds ordered and have not come in yet ,can we purchase the permits early and up-date the information or do we have to wait till the sleds arrive ?????

 

Also anyone know if we have to pay $20.00 for each permit ordered for shipping ,would have them shipped to 1 address ,I emailed OFCS to get answers.

Also I usually just order our permits directly from Dubreuileville club,is that option not available this year ????

Thanks

Zrtkat &Crew waiting for Winter

[PISTON LAKE CRUISER]

Hello everyone I have a few Questions hopefully someone will know the answer ,we buy 3 permits we have 2 new sleds ordered and have not come in yet ,can we purchase the permits early and up-date the information or do we have to wait till the sleds arrive ?????

 

Also anyone know if we have to pay $20.00 for each permit ordered for shipping ,would have them shipped to 1 address ,I emailed OFCS to get answers.

Also I usually just order our permits directly from Dubreuileville club,is that option not available this year ????

Thanks

Zrtkat &Crew waiting for Winter

Read the 2-3 posts above yours. You can put default  VIN#'s in and change them when you have the proper Vin's. You can only get permits on line but you choose the club you want to get credit for each permit you purchase. Standard shipping on line is $7.50 per permit for Ontario residents. Not sure what it is for US residents.

[Btbt]

What default numbers did you use? I was thinking of using my current sled vin then transfering permit to new sled when it arrives.Calling dealer this week to see if sled will be delivered in October, I see some showing up at US dealers.

[ArcticCrusher]

What default numbers did you use? I was thinking of using my current sled vin then transfering permit to new sled when it arrives.Calling dealer this week to see if sled will be delivered in October, I see some showing up at US dealers.

12345678... Etc.

[UsedtoSkidoo]

I will be buying 3.

 

yup!  

[Big Pete]

With the new system, I don't believe the Clubs have much to gain by having purchasers select their Club, except for the satisfaction of knowing that your particular Club has xxxx supporters.

In our case we have an old Constitution that makes everyone that buys an OFSC Trail Permit from our Club is automatically a Club Member for purposes of attending, nominating and voting for Club Directors.

As I understand it, each Club or Grooming Association receives revenue from Trail Permits based upon 2 criteria, the first being hours groomed and secondly, an amount based upon length of their trail system, with less per km of natural trail.

Last year there was some minor benefit in the Club getting 30% of the gross Trail Permit revenue paid fairly early but that gets clawed back if the Club's grooming hours are lower than average.

I will let others better versed in this to chime in but "Buy Where You Ride" is not really relevant as it once was.

Short and sweet, if Club X sells zero Trail Permits, I believe they still get the same revenue as Club Y who sells 1,500 Trail Permits if both Clubs groomed the same total hours and have equal Kim's of Trail.

Other Trail Permit revenues can come to a Club for reasons as may be determined by the District Committee.

Brian that is essentially correct except there is 1 additional criteria which is Admin which is 10% of gross sales. The club that sold 1500 permits would get slightly more equalization that the other club. There is 1 big caveat though. If a club can cover all its standard costs (trail, grooming, admin) from the 30% of sales they get directly then every additional permit sold by the club would bring incremental revenue. IMO this is a flaw in the equalization model which could be remedied with a simple fix. Reduce the up front portion of permit sales from 30% to say 10% (or eliminate it all together). This would prevent clubs from accumulating surplus funds in their bank accounts and centralize revenues to fund the groomer replacement program.

As to the other question posed by Slomo in post 32, a club must sell 50 permits to maintain its membership in the OFSC. If a club is a member of an association, as long as the association sells an average of 50 permits per club all members of the association meet the membership requirements.

[ArcticCrusher]

yup!

Congrats.

[bbakernbay]

Brian that is essentially correct except there is 1 additional criteria which is Admin which is 10% of gross sales. The club that sold 1500 permits would get slightly more equalization that the other club. There is 1 big caveat though. If a club can cover all its standard costs (trail, grooming, admin) from the 30% of sales they get directly then every additional permit sold by the club would bring incremental revenue. IMO this is a flaw in the equalization model which could be remedied with a simple fix. Reduce the up front portion of permit sales from 30% to say 10% (or eliminate it all together). This would prevent clubs from accumulating surplus funds in their bank accounts and centralize revenues to fund the groomer replacement program.

As to the other question posed by Slomo in post 32, a club must sell 50 permits to maintain its membership in the OFSC. If a club is a member of an association, as long as the association sells an average of 50 permits per club all members of the association meet the membership requirements.

Thanks Big Pete for the clarification, I knew you would chime in once you returned from the Habs game.

The 10% of gross sales for Admin is certainly significant $$ But I am having some difficulty understanding your caveat. Could you please clarify with an example.

Some Cliubs may now consider having their Groomer Operators receive payment as we move to District Wide Grooming as there are several other Clubs in the District that pay their Operators so it only seems fair that all Operators receive compensation provided that they groom on the schedule and routes set out by the District Grooming Manager.

I can certainly see that some Operators will say that I am not prepared to operate on a strict schedule as may be determined by the District.

What happens if some of these Operators say that is not acceptable to me and count me out.

There are not a lot of experienced Operators out there.

The same situation with those that do the mechanical work on the groomers. Seeing that these are now District assets and some Clubs pay for some of their repair work, then I would expect that the people volunteering will say I want to be paid now.

Even if this happens (start paying Operators and Mechanical) in 25% of the hours, that is a pile of $$ not previously being covered by Trail Permit revenues.

I have said it before, I see more expenses with MOTS, including the Regional Managers and OFSC staffers, more staff in each District, particularly District Grooming & Mechanical Manager. Add in more expenses for Groomer Operator and Mechanical and costs start going up.

Yes there should be less admin costs in most Clubs if the District can handle their Club's accounting but I don't see significant savings there.

We need to increase revenues, $180 year is too cheap considering the cost structure.

[PISTON LAKE CRUISER]

I agree with you Brian that all or none of the groomer operators should be paid. I believe that there needs to be a firm grooming schedule and in my view it should be night grooming for the most part. If we are going to dictate night grooming (I'm told that only about 37% of the clubs do the majority of their grooming at night at present) then the operators for sure need to be paid.

If their are experienced volunteer operators that don't want to participate in schedule night grooming then as much as we don't want to loose them, we need to stick to the program if it is to succeed IMHO.

I totally agree that we are giving away the product far too cheaply. The early permits should be $195.00 next year and $210.00 the following year IMHO. Wynne is doing it with the car plate stickers and while we complain we pay it and drive on. I do realize a car is not as much of an option as a sled is but most who buy will still buy.

[02Sled]

FIRM grooming scheduling is not really practical. You have a week of extreme cold and the trails see very little traffic and don't need grooming. If you send a groomer out to push around snow with the consistency of sugar on a trail that doesn't need grooming just because of a schedule doesn't make sense. Heavy rain has been coming down all day. Not likely a good thing to send out a groomer just because it's scheduled.

[Big Pete]

Brian, a club acceses permit revenue 2 ways. First is the 30% of gross sales. They get that no matter what happens during the season. The second is through the equalization process. The amount of equalization is determined by the shortfall between Net Permit Rev (30%) and the clubs Standard Cost Allowances which are determined by km of trails, hrs of grooming and a10% Admin Allowance. If the 30% is greater than those 3 items then there is no equalization received. But they continue to receive 30% of every permit sold. Therefore Buy Where You Ride has an impact When the Standard Cost Allowances are greater than the 30% then the club gets equalization to make up the shortfall. In this scenario every additional permit sold effectively reduced the equalization requirement virtually on a dollar for basis (except for the small allowance for admin)..

The other items you mentioned are all inherent risks of MOTS. Have they been adequately quantified or assessed remains to be seen. Personally I think the volunteer impact has been significantly underestimated in both operational and financial terms. On the plus side the extra year that was provided at AGM may help with a more gradual conversion and minimize the impacts.

As to permit prices, $10 on the margin is not going to fund all the requirements in this new paradigm. If permit prices went up $100 across the board ($280, $310, $360) we are still less than Quebec so competitively we are on good ground. Yes you probably take a hit in the first year of implenration but that comes back with the first good snow year. Real success would depend on strong enforcement across the province. We have talked about improved enforcement for 4-5 years now as a key plank in Framework for Change but in reality we are probably in a worse position now compared to 4 years ago.

[Baylaker]

I love being able to sit down on my couch and order my pass online with my phone! I actually had to get up to fetch my Visa card, but other than that it's great! Ordered mine thismorning, after the grass drags yesterday it had me itching just a little bit. Was a great success yesterday, just over 175 entries and 500 spectators! I tried posting the video but won't work. CTV news was there broadcasting so if you want to see the news clip just go to their website. Next year I'll be sure to give you guys more than a days notice...just been super busy lately with everything. Order number was 573. Bring on the snow! I'm ready!!!