Blake G Posted July 1, 2016 Share Posted July 1, 2016 Yamaha Motor Co. (YMC) announced today that the company is moving its global snowmobile operations to North America, and the division will be headquartered in Toronto, Ontario. http://snowgoer.com/latest-news/yamaha-moving-snowmobile-headquarters-to-north-america/23637/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sledjunk Posted July 1, 2016 Share Posted July 1, 2016 Wonder what that means for real Yamahas? Not good news, I suspect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manotickmike Posted July 1, 2016 Share Posted July 1, 2016 Manufacturing? Doesn't sound like that's moving. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Posted July 2, 2016 Share Posted July 2, 2016 Owning a hybrid Viper that ended the year on the back of a pick-up (while it's twin was towed by trailer for the same non-start reason)....not great news. Unless winter temps don't go below minus 20. Then the joint product (no pun intended) is smokin'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blake G Posted July 2, 2016 Author Share Posted July 2, 2016 Arctic Cat or Yamaha component failure? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildbill Posted July 2, 2016 Share Posted July 2, 2016 Arctic Cat or Yamaha component failure? yamaha component failed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reevester Posted July 2, 2016 Share Posted July 2, 2016 yamaha component failed Yep. Although I'm not taking it as hard as cauank I was not happy with my starter failure it did get resolved and I put on another 4000 trouble free miles I choose to go back to 100% cat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Posted July 2, 2016 Share Posted July 2, 2016 Yamaha starter Identical sleds. Both didn't start. Old story. The feeling I can't shake is that if there were 10 Yama cats lined up that morning, they all would have failed. A known defect. A least it's now a local call Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reevester Posted July 2, 2016 Share Posted July 2, 2016 Yamaha starter Identical sleds. Both didn't start. Old story. The feeling I can't shake is that if there were 10 Yama cats lined up that morning, they all would have failed. A known defect. A least it's now a local call No. I have had mine start in -30 to -38 on several occasions. You do know it's an updated starter when it's replaced right? I still find it to be a hot start issue. Mine went when the sled was warm. I let the key turn over to let the fuel pump cycle and it seemed to snap the bendix gear back when it backfired. When it's warm I know longer turn the key to acc. and dump fuel I just crank it over and haven't had an issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Posted July 2, 2016 Share Posted July 2, 2016 I wasn't aware that it was replaced with an 'updated' starter. Dealer never mentioned it. Thanks. As for turning fuel pump on when warm...or bypassing that part...have to look into that further. Rode a Vector before this (hair dryer on relays pre red relay) so listening for fuel pump engagement is in my DNA. Great advice. Thanks again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Pussy Posted July 2, 2016 Share Posted July 2, 2016 There still seems to some confusion out there about the Yamaha 1049 engine starter failure issue. I hear lots of so called theories as to why it happens, bendix problems, kick back etc. First of all there is no bendix like a conventional 2-stoke engine. The starter is 100% engaged at all times and drives through a one way ring bearing on the flywheel. I have all the pictures to prove it because I had my engine apart in a failed effort to avoid the problem. There are more than one failure mode here. From reading posts on four forums this is what I have found. Failure Mode #1. Starter failure it's self. This is usually caused by crappy field magnets in the starter case that shatter. The armature is then locked and cannot turn. You will try to crank, hear the solenoid click but no crank action. Just lots of battery current going through a jammed armature and brush assembly. How can this one be blamed on Cat ? The starter comes with the engine from Japan. This has been known to happen in riding mowers, snowblowers etc. This could be an indication of the quality of the starter. Maybe there has been a part number update and better unit. I have no proof of that. Failure Mode #2. Solenoid (starter relay) welding closed. The solenoid under the seat can weld the contacts closed. This keeps the starter running after the engine has started and burns up the starter. I have heard this happen on ATV's as well. Apparently, this used to happen on Nitro's and some guys would wire a light across the starter so they could monitor the starter running. If the light did not go out when the key was released, they start beating on the solenoid or disconnect the battery to save the starter. I don't know of this being a failure mode on the Yamma-Cats. The solenoid is under the seats and is probably NOT a Yamaha part. Failure Mode #3. Starter idler gear failure. This is the bad one that most people have experienced. First of all a picture of the right hand side of the engine with the magneto cover removed so you can see how it works. Notice on the left, the starter shaft has spur gear teeth cut in it. It drives the outer fine teeth of the idler gear. The smaller course teeth drive the ring gear mounted on the one way ring bearing behind the flywheel. The inner race of the one way bearing is bolted to the back of the flywheel. No bendix, no gear grind, but full time engagement, just like a Japanese motorcycle. Now the next thing you need to understand is that ALL engines kick back. If it don't, it has no compression. A V8 will always stop at one of four positions. When it coasts down, there is always one cylinder under compression and it will always push the engine backwards until the pressure in the cylinder balances out. When this engine turns backward, the one way bearing locks, and the energy back drives the idler gear and the starter. Going backwards, this is a gear up situation and the starter can spin rather fast until the crankshaft settles down. When this happens, if you tun the key again, you have a real good chance to break the fine teeth on the idler gear. Here are some pictures to prove that this happens. There have been failures of both Yamaha's and Cats. There seems to be a lot more Yamaha failures and I believe it is because there has been a lot more built and sold. Think about it. Vipers are all that anyone has been buying. Ask any dealer and they will tell you it's been a BIG seller. Most Cat guys buy 2-strokes except for me, this time. So when the teeth break off, they go two places. 1. the oil pan. 2. the magnets on the flywheel and then tear up the alternator coils. This will lead to very expensive out of warranty repair, if you don't have the balls to do it yourself. Now most guys just leave the teeth in the pan because the engine has to be removed to get the pan off. So when the dealer replaces the damaged parts, they order the idler gear and put it in. I have talked to the Yamaha dealer in Woodstock that has replaced many in model year 2014 and 2015 Vipers. I called a dealer in Wisconsin who has only replaced only two in 125 sleds sold. Neither one seem to know anything about the possibility of the UPDATED IDLER GEAR that I am about to show you. Look at this. This picture is from a mechanic in Wisconsin that bought a replacement gear and got the one on the left with on updated part number and a unique molding ring between the small gear teeth and the shaft hole. I ordered this new number that was updated some time in late 2015 from the Woodstock Yamaha dealer. I got the old gear on the right. I sent it back. A guy in Minnesota bought the gear from his Cat dealer. He got the new one. I wanted to replace my old gear as a pre-emtive strike to eliminate the problem. I hung my head and put my engine back together with the old gear. I got no where with Yamaha Canada. They told the dealer the part was updated in 2008. So I think that new parts are in the US. When a US dealer orders it, they get the new part. When a Canadian dealer orders one, they get old stock. Since NO dealer has stock, you cannot go look at one. You order and take your chances. Since the gear is $87.00 from Yamaha, and $138 from Cat, you want to use a Yamaha dealer. There is no guarantee that ordering one from Cat in Canada will get you a new gear. This gear looks to made from the sintered powdered metal molding process. Not a CNC cut and hardened gear. Look at the pictures of the gear in my engine. Clearly this is the old gear used in model year 2015. It looks like Yamaha is doing nothing, to avoid this from getting out and causing a recall. Dealers have been told nothing. Only due to forums has the new gear surfaced. I may try again next summer to order a gear and see what I get. In the meantime you must be very vigilant how you start these engines. Turn on the key to let the fuel pump run. After a few seconds, crank it and hold the key cranking until it FULLY starts. Then release it. If it don't start let go and WAIT until the engine comes to a COMPLETE stop before trying again. DO NOT BUMP the starter trying to show off to your friends how quick the engine starts. You just may hear the grinding as the starter shaft gear tries to climb up on the next tooth after the one or two missing teeth that are on your magnets. If this happens, call it a day, pull it in the trailer and go home, pull it apart and hope the teeth are not down in the oil pan. It is not very hard to do this fix. One hour will have it all apart. If anyone wants to argue about this, I have more pictures to prove my case. I had the balls to go in there so I know what I'm taking about. This is probably not the thread to post this but since you are talking about Yamaha Canada, here you go. BP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sledjunk Posted July 2, 2016 Share Posted July 2, 2016 BP Did you have to pull the engine to fix this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Pussy Posted July 3, 2016 Share Posted July 3, 2016 You missed the point of the post. I DID NOT have a failure. I wanted to upgrade the failure prone gear to the new style that Yamaha won't admit exists. I ordered one in Woodstock but got an old stock gear. I was pissed off and sent it back. I had no broken gear teeth to remove. I just removed the muffler, drained the oil since it needed an oil change anyway, removed some oil lines, removed the banana brace, and pulled the mag cover off the engine. This is not hard to do. If you need to look for broken teeth, and want to get them out of the oil pan, then yes you need to pull the engine. The idea was to avoid the broken teeth but I so far failed. I posted a while ago about using self adhesive heaters to aid in cold starting. This is the reason I did it. No need to tempt fate and load that brittle powdered metal gear for no reason. If any of you want more detail how to get the cover back on, let me know. All this cost me was a $17 gasket to know that my gear is failure prone. All of yours will be too. The 2016 model year has early and late builds. The early builds have the same engine as the two previous years. The late builds have a new design 1049 with a different crank, rods, pistons and a wider idler gear. It will not work in the old engines. I even know how to tell the difference in the engines from the outside. BP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Posted July 3, 2016 Share Posted July 3, 2016 Thanks again BP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sledjunk Posted July 3, 2016 Share Posted July 3, 2016 BP, I didn't miss your point, but was wondering if the engine had to be pulled to remove the mag cover. Thanks for clarifying that. I have never heard of these starting motor issues on the Vectors, Ventures, or Nytros. Looking at the 'fiche, the new part number you show, looks like the original part from the Vectors from '08 on and is the superseded part number for previous years. I wonder what is different about the Viper's to cause this issue? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blue er Posted July 3, 2016 Share Posted July 3, 2016 sled the biggest difference is the artic cat ecu and programming, the problems with the no starts ect are all ecu calibration and the associated backfiring and kick back will have a negative effect on starter life and surrounding part. had zero issues with apex starter or ventures and vectors i owned, vect had 24000 trouble free km on it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowchopper Posted July 3, 2016 Share Posted July 3, 2016 My buddy had a 09 nytro with over 8000 miles on it when he got rid of of it.Never had a starter issue. Isn't it the same engine as the Viper? Wonder what Yamaha changed in the starter since then? Anyways back to the original post i think it is good that Yamaha will be moving their office to Toronto. They will probably spend lots of time in northern Ontario testing new ideas for their powersport line. I don't see it being a bad thing. Just my 02 cents... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sledjunk Posted July 3, 2016 Share Posted July 3, 2016 ... Wonder what Yamaha changed in the starter since then? In reviewing the parts 'fiche from multiple years and models using the three cylinder engine, nothing has changed in the starter or the related gearing. I suspect Blue er may be correct about the ECU changes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Pussy Posted July 3, 2016 Share Posted July 3, 2016 Some more information from guys on the Totally Yamaha Forum. This photo was taken buy a guy who put a broken Viper idler gear in a vise and then used a cold chisel and hammer to break off a few teeth. This was done to see how brittle or ductile the gear was. The teeth broke off very easy and had a porous look to the internal metal. This indicates to me that this gear is a powdered metal gear. This process is filling a mold with special metal powder, heating it and applying pressure in a press. Little if any machining is needed depending on the quality of the mold. Too bad the photo is so small and so little resolution. Now here is an old gear out of a Phaser, I believe. Note the teeth are not shearing off but actually marking up the cold chisel. I don't think this is a powdered metal gear, but a real machined and surface hardened gear. Now which quality of gear would you rather have in there ? I don't think the part numbers show the whole story. There is tremendous pressure for engineers to reduce cost. To do this, they must use new processes that have been developed by outside venders to reduce the cost of their parts. That does not mean the quality of the parts are as good. I will bet there has never been so many 1049 engines built than those in model year 2014 - 2016. They must have had to ramp up production big time. I think it very narrow minded to assume this is the "exact same" engine that was in the early Vectors. It has evolved several times since then. It has evolved again for late 2016 on. There will be even more powdered metal parts in the new engine. You need to start reading on TY forum. Here is a screen shot of the Yamaha idler gear part number showing that there was an update. When I first looked at the parts fiche 2 years ago the old part number was there. Now it is the new part number. The fiche is updated periodically and every old number is changed out to the new one. You could never know there was an old part number unless you are a dealer and check this. So all I read in ALL the magazines is how this engine is so reliable and built like an anvil. I beg to differ. It is now just the same as everything else. Yamaha is riding on the loyalty of customers knowing product from the past. That is why I bought a Cat with this engine. I don't buy the ECU programming ballony. My 2015 has never had a problem starting. And all engines kick back. Granted it does not idle that smooth and has a stumble off idle. Also it only gets 16 MPG imperial, not the mileage they rave about in the magazines. Must be afraid of loosing advertizing dollars. One more thing. If you stop this engine with the kill switch like 2-stroker boys like to do, and leave the key on, the tail light stays on. When you go to start it buy releasing the kill switch and just crank it, it won't start. There is no spark. You can probably crank all day. Turn the key off, wait for the instruments to fade out, turn on the key and crank and it starts up normal. Leave the kill switch alone. I don't have one in my car so I don't use it on my sled either. BP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sledjunk Posted July 3, 2016 Share Posted July 3, 2016 You may be correct about updating the process to produce the same part. However, your description with the kill switch is certainly not my experience with my 2015 Vector. I rarely turn off the engine with the key and except for my parking light modification, the tail light does go out and the engine restarts without turning the key off then on. Just turn to crank and away she goes. About the only time I turn the key off is to remove it. Also my gas mileage is certainly better than 16 MPG. It is very close to the mileage on my 2012 (but not quite as good as ApeXMAN's APEX) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reevester Posted July 3, 2016 Share Posted July 3, 2016 I was told by the dealer that they had put an updated starter in and yes they had to clean the bits out of the oil pan. Maybe they told me it was a bendix because that's what the parts guy that let me know thought it was. I didn't have the balls to take it apart myself because I didn't have to on a sled under warranty. It only makes me feel better getting g rid of it seeing the lengths someone like BP has to go through only hoping it doesn't grenade trailside. Cheers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Pussy Posted July 3, 2016 Share Posted July 3, 2016 My kill switch description is for a 2015 XF7000 LXR. The first time it happened was north of Hearst. I used the kill switch to keep the key on to have power on the accessory plug so I could check out where we were on my GPS. When I went to start it, it wouldn't. I cycled the key and it fired right up. This has nothing to do with Nitros, Vectors, or Apex. This is a Viper / 7000 quirk. I bring it up so you guys don't drain a battery trying to start one. I had to have the "balls" since I did not "buy" more warranty. Shouldn't have to when all the Viper reviews say the engine is reliable as an "anvil". I put the money into lots of accessories to make my sled a great solo touring sled. The gas mileage is a totally other issue. The gearing in this sled is 21/49 with 9 tooth 2.86 pitch drivers. It revs 7200 rpm to go 60 mph (100 kph). Its like a wood chipper running but no chips flying. I believe this is all to satisfy "Motorhead Mark" the oldest wanna be hammer head out there with lots of opinions. He says this sled feels as close to a 2-stroke that he has seen so far. But yet says the gas mileage is so good. Everything has been done to make it rev like a 600. To bad one of my buddies MXZ 600 carb gets better than 20 mpg imperial when we run together. Stock 21/49 sprockets. Note back bottom sprocket diameter. Modified 21/41 sprockets. Note back bottom sprocket diameter. OK to fix this issue, I have just changed the gearing to 21/41 from a Viper XTX with 8 tooth 2.86 pitch drivers. This takes the ratio from 2.33 down to 1.95. I also made my own torsional secondary using a Cat red/white spring and changed the primary spring to a Bearcat blue. Engagement is now 3000 rpm not 4200. Too bad I have to wait another 6 months to test this. The gas mileage has to be much better. I am aiming at 5500 to 6000 rpm at 60 mph (100 kph). The big question is the clutching that needs work but the gear change is simple with a lower sprocket with 8 teeth less and a shorter 86 link Borg Warner chain. I got those parts at the Yamaha dealer. Cheaper than Cat. Ask me in Jan or Feb how it works. I ride with an MXZ 600 carb, a 2010 Vector, my son on my 2001 Thundercat, and an MXZ 800 XRS. No 4-stoke skippy-doo to compare. I figure that by 2025, I should have the bugs out and a good calibration. BP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canuck Posted July 5, 2016 Share Posted July 5, 2016 Yamaha (Toronto) Snowmobile Division headquarters Receptionist: "Big Pussy and Sledjunk are in the reception room" Executive: "Perhaps moving headquarters to Toronto wasn't such a good idea" _ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sledjunk Posted July 5, 2016 Share Posted July 5, 2016 Yamaha (Toronto) Snowmobile Division headquarters Receptionist: "Big Pussy and Sledjunk are in the reception room" Executive: "Perhaps moving headquarters to Toronto wasn't such a good idea" _ Probably be a Wednesday as that is the day that we used to go out for Japanese lunch when I was working. Yamaha is about 5 minutes away from my old office Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Pussy Posted July 6, 2016 Share Posted July 6, 2016 I can't help thinking that the new office would be better if it was close to Barrie. More snow for them the play, I mean test. Unfortunately, the employees would not like it there since it is too far away from the action of the big city. Everyone wants to be in Meca. I work for a major Japanese company in Mississauga and hate the location and the big drive every day into that mess. But there is light at the end of the tunnel in a few more years. BP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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