More On The Snow

[Viperules700]

What clubs in what association got $12.00 per permit sold currently?

That was the rate when I last attended meeting.

[Wildman]

And it seems that this was done successfully by your District without MOTS so why the need to force feed it?

I can't answer that, because I don't know.

[Wildman]

We have spoken about this and I understand that it works for you and your district.  However, what I am not clear about is if that is truly the system that is being proposed, err forced, in MOTS.

 

In this latest version, our club is being moved to a different district that will be composed of what is currently, two grooming associations and three or four standalone clubs.  Under this new district, we are expected to implement MOTS with only three months till the trails open.  Too much, too fast, and too many unknowns.

Like I said earlier, I don't agree with MOTS the way I understand the proposal. I was just offering insight from my districts operations, based off a couple of your questions, I am not saying it will work any where else, I am only involved with 1district.

[Faceman]

Couple of points, yes, too fast! Who is funding the increased staff or better still where are the funds coming from???

Any club with a "clubhouse" CANNOT change status to chapter- will lose insurance on clubhouse liability

Trying to force tractors/ or saying they are cheaper is Bullcrap!

AGM- I agree that the OFSC needs to take a serious look at its model and pricing. They should be footing a larger portion if they expect membership to attend. Why is the majority of the important business or Friday and then Sat is a 2 hour business meeting followed by a love in??

[volunteer2]

So it's settled!!!   For the benefit of helping out so many clubs that say too much too fast we stick together and we vote no!!!

[threadman]

after a disappointing season their seems to be a lack of interest in local volenteers,feeling that the district is just looking for people to obtain permissions,and put in trail i have always enjoyed being a volenteer and taken great pride in trails and reroutes that we have accomplished.  the landowners that i talk to daily do not trust govt and are still concerned about giving permission,i have the feeling that alot of landowners when approached this year will decide not to grant permission this season.  seems that the 2 most important things being ignored landowners and local volenteers who put in hours,i dont understand if local volenteers disappear who will put in trails and obtain permissions.  sad to see where grassroots snowmobiling seems to be heading    

[Big Pete]

So it's settled!!! For the benefit of helping out so many clubs that say too much too fast we stick together and we vote no!!!

Agreed.

As a side note has anybody had their district road show the OFSC is doing? What was discussed? What was the outcome? More or less support? Our meeting is late next week.

[volunteer2]

Agreed.

As a side note has anybody had their district road show the OFSC is doing? What was discussed? What was the outcome? More or less support? Our meeting is late next week.

Interesting    We have not heard of any potential meeting      But I haven't asked either

[sledjunk]

Agreed.

As a side note has anybody had their district road show the OFSC is doing? What was discussed? What was the outcome? More or less support? Our meeting is late next week.

Our? district meeting is September 7.  No idea about a dog and pony show, though.

[mczed38]

We have spoken about this and I understand that it works for you and your district.  However, what I am not clear about is if that is truly the system that is being proposed, err forced, in MOTS.

 

In this latest version, our club is being moved to a different district that will be composed of what is currently, two grooming associations and three or four standalone clubs.  Under this new district, we are expected to implement MOTS with only three months till the trails open.  Too much, too fast, and too many unknowns.

Agreed. If this thing is anticipated to get a green light at the AGM then the road show should be cancelled and OFSC leaders and hired consultants can sit down with us right now to work out the logistics.

Don't start sending me emails after AGM wanting meetings and inventories etc etc etc. I have time now to deal with this. Not while we're gearing up for the season.

 

Our club is hoping to gain much of what MotS is promising by having joined an existing Grooming Association.  When you look at the structure of some districts it seems the association is the district.  Perhaps a look at why that is should be considered? What keeps some clubs out of associations? 

 

Too much change, too fast, with too many unanswered questions. Yes we voted for the leadership to develop the plan, we never said we'd give the plan a rubber stamp.

[Nutter]

Couple of points, yes, too fast! Who is funding the increased staff or better still where are the funds coming from???

Any club with a "clubhouse" CANNOT change status to chapter- will lose insurance on clubhouse liability

Trying to force tractors/ or saying they are cheaper is Bullcrap!

AGM- I agree that the OFSC needs to take a serious look at its model and pricing. They should be footing a larger portion if they expect membership to attend. Why is the majority of the important business or Friday and then Sat is a 2 hour business meeting followed by a love in??

 

 

After doing a lot of research on AGM attendance and costs, I put a motion on the floor some years back at the AGM in Huntsville for $2.30 to come out of every permit to fund the cost of guaranteeing 2 members from every club will be covered to attend AGM. The floor voted it down, I was in awe that the floor didn't see this as a good move. 

[bbakernbay]

In my previous post I stated:

"I have heard that there may be no more industrial groomers bought due to cost and farm tractors will be the power units. This will not work in many northern areas with steeper terrain."

I have now had the opportunity to start reviewing the recent MOTS documents prepared for the upcoming AGM and see that my statement is in error.

MOTS is not proposing the elimination of industrial groomers but rather has developed a 5 year plan for replacement of both a mix of industrial and tractor units.

I recommend that those interested obtain the entire MOTS documentation and review it at their Club and District level prior to the AGM.

I apologize for repeating erroneous rumours as this is not constructive and not usually my MO.

[Wildbill]

In my previous post I stated:

"I have heard that there may be no more industrial groomers bought due to cost and farm tractors will be the power units. This will not work in many northern areas with steeper terrain."

I have now had the opportunity to start reviewing the recent MOTS documents prepared for the upcoming AGM and see that my statement is in error.

MOTS is not proposing the elimination of industrial groomers but rather has developed a 5 year plan for replacement of both a mix of industrial and tractor units.

I recommend that those interested obtain the entire MOTS documentation and review it at their Club and District level prior to the AGM.

I apologize for repeating erroneous rumours as this is not constructive and not usually my MO.

There was a change at one point the tractor conversions were being pushed due to cost 

[Big Pete]

Agree that the 5 yrs plan is a mix of purpose built (55%) and tractor conversions (45%). But the 18 units being proposed for this season are 100% tractor units. So if you are scheduled for a new unit this year, better hope you need a tractor conversion.

[Greggie]

In my previous post I stated:

"I have heard that there may be no more industrial groomers bought due to cost and farm tractors will be the power units. This will not work in many northern areas with steeper terrain."

I have now had the opportunity to start reviewing the recent MOTS documents prepared for the upcoming AGM and see that my statement is in error.

MOTS is not proposing the elimination of industrial groomers but rather has developed a 5 year plan for replacement of both a mix of industrial and tractor units.

I recommend that those interested obtain the entire MOTS documentation and review it at their Club and District level prior to the AGM.

I apologize for repeating erroneous rumours as this is not constructive and not usually my MO.

Part you were right, from what I heard, it's for next season groomers. The Pisten Bully's and the Huskys are too expensive with the high US dollar so they decided to do for this year only tractor groomers with a Sourcy track kit. How this will work out, not sure....

[Viperules700]

If they have metal bars and cleats on tractor units, that would help in moderate terrain? I seen Elliot lake was using tractor units last winter and they have fairly hilly terrain.

[bbakernbay]

Many of us are concerned about the financial implications of the MOTS proposal.

Here are my 3 main concerns:

1. It does not appear that the Snowmobiler is being asked to pay more which I believe is wrong. We have been stuck at $180 for many years and with the success of the online sales, the percentage of regular Seasonal Trail Permits bought at $180 is increasing yearly. We need to increase revenues and the Val Tag is not the answer.

2. If we are hiring 6 Regional Managers, the budget has got to be in the order of $500,000 with salary, benefits and expenses. That is a big chunk of change to spend with no assurance that it will be recouped by efficiencies, etc. generated by the wisdom and experience of these 6 Managers. Also, where are they going to come from and what experience will they have to convince veteran Volunteers that the new way is better.

3. Many Clubs in our District 11, and probably half the Clubs utilize Volunteer Operators and Mechanics to groom trails and maintain the groomers and drags. What incentive is there for a Club Volunteer to do this now when his or her Club will not likely benefit from the financial savings that are garnered by their volunteering. Combine this with the fact that the neighbouring Club, Grooming Association or District is paying a reasonable wage to their Operators. If there is no financial gain for the Club I can certainly see more and more Operators request wages for the work they do similar to elsewhere in the OFSC. Where is this increased cost for wages going to come from? How much has been budgeted for these new expenses.

4. The same question is applicable for those that maintain and wrench their Club's groomer and drag. Some Volunteers do virtually everything while other Clubs call the Supplier and have them come and fix it or even have it floated to their shop and back and a huge Invoice is generated.

Both scenarios are very likely to occur, the main reason being that the Groomer Fleet is being drastically downsized, in our case from 28 to 14. This creates the real situation whereby a devoted and experienced Club Volunteer is likely to lose 'his or her' Groomer. Their Groomer may not even be parked close to their home anymore.

Human nature is such that "Ownership" means a hell of a lot to our Volunteers. If "My Groomer" is gone, I will lose interest and pride in operating and maintaining it. In addition, I would not be interested in driving longer distances and working in different quarters and with different people and especially in taking Orders from someone I don't know.

I believe this to be a very serious and real hidden issue and the departure of those few skilled Volunteers who operate and wrench cannot be easily replaced, even by paid staff.

I know that MSR and STP and others operate with paid Operators and Mechanics, so it is being done. My point is that in this transition we are taking a big risk, one by increasing costs due to more people wanting to be paid like the others and secondly the existing Volunteers will not be wanting to continue when "Their" Groomer is no more.

I know this is very negative but I believe it should be raised.

Another issue is likely going to be more Trail Closures and this will undoubtedly piss off many of our Volunteers who enjoy many of the local Club trails.

[sledjunk]

Many of us are concerned about the financial implications of the MOTS proposal.

Here are my 3 main concerns:

1. It does not appear that the Snowmobiler is being asked to pay more which I believe is wrong. We have been stuck at $180 for many years and with the success of the online sales, the percentage of regular Seasonal Trail Permits bought at $180 is increasing yearly. We need to increase revenues and the Val Tag is not the answer.

2. If we are hiring 6 Regional Managers, the budget has got to be in the order of $500,000 with salary, benefits and expenses. That is a big chunk of change to spend with no assurance that it will be recouped by efficiencies, etc. generated by the wisdom and experience of these 6 Managers. Also, where are they going to come from and what experience will they have to convince veteran Volunteers that the new way is better.

3. Many Clubs in our District 11, and probably half the Clubs utilize Volunteer Operators and Mechanics to groom trails and maintain the groomers and drags. What incentive is there for a Club Volunteer to do this now when his or her Club will not likely benefit from the financial savings that are garnered by their volunteering. Combine this with the fact that the neighbouring Club, Grooming Association or District is paying a reasonable wage to their Operators. If there is no financial gain for the Club I can certainly see more and more Operators request wages for the work they do similar to elsewhere in the OFSC. Where is this increased cost for wages going to come from? How much has been budgeted for these new expenses.

4. The same question is applicable for those that maintain and wrench their Club's groomer and drag. Some Volunteers do virtually everything while other Clubs call the Supplier and have them come and fix it or even have it floated to their shop and back and a huge Invoice is generated.

Both scenarios are very likely to occur, the main reason being that the Groomer Fleet is being drastically downsized, in our case from 28 to 14. This creates the real situation whereby a devoted and experienced Club Volunteer is likely to lose 'his or her' Groomer. Their Groomer may not even be parked close to their home anymore.

Human nature is such that "Ownership" means a hell of a lot to our Volunteers. If "My Groomer" is gone, I will lose interest and pride in operating and maintaining it. In addition, I would not be interested in driving longer distances and working in different quarters and with different people and especially in taking Orders from someone I don't know.

I believe this to be a very serious and real hidden issue and the departure of those few skilled Volunteers who operate and wrench cannot be easily replaced, even by paid staff.

I know that MSR and STP and others operate with paid Operators and Mechanics, so it is being done. My point is that in this transition we are taking a big risk, one by increasing costs due to more people wanting to be paid like the others and secondly the existing Volunteers will not be wanting to continue when "Their" Groomer is no more.

I know this is very negative but I believe it should be raised.

Another issue is likely going to be more Trail Closures and this will undoubtedly piss off many of our Volunteers who enjoy many of the local Club trails.

As usual, well said, Brian.

[02Sled]

Many of us are concerned about the financial implications of the MOTS proposal.

Here are my 3 main concerns:

1. It does not appear that the Snowmobiler is being asked to pay more which I believe is wrong. We have been stuck at $180 for many years and with the success of the online sales, the percentage of regular Seasonal Trail Permits bought at $180 is increasing yearly. We need to increase revenues and the Val Tag is not the answer.

2. If we are hiring 6 Regional Managers, the budget has got to be in the order of $500,000 with salary, benefits and expenses. That is a big chunk of change to spend with no assurance that it will be recouped by efficiencies, etc. generated by the wisdom and experience of these 6 Managers. Also, where are they going to come from and what experience will they have to convince veteran Volunteers that the new way is better.

3. Many Clubs in our District 11, and probably half the Clubs utilize Volunteer Operators and Mechanics to groom trails and maintain the groomers and drags. What incentive is there for a Club Volunteer to do this now when his or her Club will not likely benefit from the financial savings that are garnered by their volunteering. Combine this with the fact that the neighbouring Club, Grooming Association or District is paying a reasonable wage to their Operators. If there is no financial gain for the Club I can certainly see more and more Operators request wages for the work they do similar to elsewhere in the OFSC. Where is this increased cost for wages going to come from? How much has been budgeted for these new expenses.

4. The same question is applicable for those that maintain and wrench their Club's groomer and drag. Some Volunteers do virtually everything while other Clubs call the Supplier and have them come and fix it or even have it floated to their shop and back and a huge Invoice is generated.

Both scenarios are very likely to occur, the main reason being that the Groomer Fleet is being drastically downsized, in our case from 28 to 14. This creates the real situation whereby a devoted and experienced Club Volunteer is likely to lose 'his or her' Groomer. Their Groomer may not even be parked close to their home anymore.

Human nature is such that "Ownership" means a hell of a lot to our Volunteers. If "My Groomer" is gone, I will lose interest and pride in operating and maintaining it. In addition, I would not be interested in driving longer distances and working in different quarters and with different people and especially in taking Orders from someone I don't know.

I believe this to be a very serious and real hidden issue and the departure of those few skilled Volunteers who operate and wrench cannot be easily replaced, even by paid staff.

I know that MSR and STP and others operate with paid Operators and Mechanics, so it is being done. My point is that in this transition we are taking a big risk, one by increasing costs due to more people wanting to be paid like the others and secondly the existing Volunteers will not be wanting to continue when "Their" Groomer is no more.

I know this is very negative but I believe it should be raised.

Another issue is likely going to be more Trail Closures and this will undoubtedly piss off many of our Volunteers who enjoy many of the local Club trails.

 

$500,000 for 6 people. $83,333.00 per person. Where do I sign up?! By the way huge numbers of businesses do not have medical and dental benefits as part of employment. As for the volunteer groomer operators my perception is that most are in fact paid already. Maybe not in your club but elsewhere. They aren't getting rich doing this but where do you find people who are willing to devote perhaps 10 or 12 hours through the night without compensation on multiple nights per week?

 

Some of your points do provide food for thought.

[Viperules700]

Sounds like a big stew pot is ready to boil over. Thanks for your insight Brian. I enjoyed reading your thoughts.

[Elliotgroomer]

If they have metal bars and cleats on tractor units, that would help in moderate terrain? I seen Elliot lake was using tractor units last winter and they have fairly hilly terrain.

Elliot Lake has been running tractor groomers since 1996, Gilbert units untill 2004 when we purchased a TM130 Surtrac got our Soucy in 2010. The Soucy may be OK in flat land but is pretty much usless in hilly terrain like our. Last winter for instance to soucy was unable to groom 60% of our tails. Would we ever accept another Soucy NEVER. If the surtrac were still available would take one in a heartbeat. Would take a gilbert also. I will say that the snow conditions were strange last year, the Surtrac struggled to do some of the hills but did them, where we were turning around or towing the Soucy up hills.

[bbakernbay]

Elliot Lake has been running tractor groomers since 1996, Gilbert units untill 2004 when we purchased a TM130 Surtrac got our Soucy in 2010. The Soucy may be OK in flat land but is pretty much usless in hilly terrain like our. Last winter for instance to soucy was unable to groom 60% of our tails. Would we ever accept another Soucy NEVER. If the surtrac were still available would take one in a heartbeat. Would take a gilbert also. I will say that the snow conditions were strange last year, the Surtrac struggled to do some of the hills but did them, where we were turning around or towing the Soucy up hills.

Are your Operators and Wrenchpersons paid?

[bbakernbay]

$500,000 for 6 people. $83,333.00 per person. Where do I sign up?! By the way huge numbers of businesses do not have medical and dental benefits as part of employment. As for the volunteer groomer operators my perception is that most are in fact paid already. Maybe not in your club but elsewhere. They aren't getting rich doing this but where do you find people who are willing to devote perhaps 10 or 12 hours through the night without compensation on multiple nights per week?

Some of your points do provide food for thought.

I am estimating $25 an hour @ 40 hours X 52 weeks = $52,000 plus 20% EI, CPP, Benefits = $62,000 + $500 a week for travel expenses for 20 weeks as there will be undoubtedly considerable travel = $72,000 each.

I presume someone will supervise these people so that is a cost as well.

Anyone else in the know can chime in.

[Big Pete]

I am estimating $25 an hour @ 40 hours X 52 weeks = $52,000 plus 20% EI, CPP, Benefits = $62,000 + $500 a week for travel expenses for 20 weeks as there will be undoubtedly considerable travel = $72,000 each.

I presume someone will supervise these people so that is a cost as well.

Anyone else in the know can chime in.

Pg 10 of schedule C-Financial Projections details the new Regional Resources. $255k this year (part year) then $520K, $530K and $541K over the next 3 years.

[KCC]

Our groomer operators are not paid  and I believe only 1 club in our district has paid operators.