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not so good news from northern ontario


skidooboy

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i dont have any info other than what was saw on Luc's facebook page. i am not a facebook person so, i can only see so much of his page/report.

 

Algoma Sno Plan Affiliation about a minute ago . We have been delivered the bad news that the Chapleau Arctic Watershed club has folded which was devastating news to us as their trails are our only connection to our northern clubs of Wawa & Dubreuilville as well as...
 
one more devistating nail in the far northern regions coffin. i hope there is a silver lining to this otherwise dark cloud. Ski
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I am not surprised, I also doubt that it will be the only one, it is going to be a downward spiral, that started with the disconnect between Thunder Bay and Red Rock, then Mani then the rest of D16 and Foleyet.......the list will get longer, 210 per permit is not enough, much less 180. The province is broke, so there is not much hope there, couple all that with gas prices and less visitors, well this writing has been on the wall for quite some time now.

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I've been saying it for years; there needs to be an adjustment.  Leaving it for the individual clubs and their volunteers does not work.  It never has. 

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so the masses understand this... with this news comes the end of all multi day loop riding, and tourist traffic west of sudbury, cochrane ect... there will be less of a draw for tourists to come try or continue to tour ontario. the true last loop left will be sudbury to timmins, to cochrane, to kirkland lake, back to sudbury.  all other trails in northern ontario will be up and back, no looping. this will be devistating to organized sledding in ontario as a whole. as i stated before, if you think your area cant fail, your group may be next. because, if touring riders cant get to your area, there is no draw to make the extra effort to come to you. yes your areas will be effected by this.  Ski 

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I've been saying it for years; there needs to be an adjustment. Leaving it for the individual clubs and their volunteers does not work. It never has.

If it never worked, how did the system get to where it was in the first place. That is a very short sighted statement. Organized snowmobiling got to where it was because it was supported and it was ALL volunteer. Todays outlook on life, lack of volunteerism and support has brought the system down.

I was riding with a group south of Iroquois Falls, we where stopped for a break, two young fellas on new long tracks stopped to shoot the breeze, I asked why niether of them had a permit. Their reply, they don't ride trails, I asked if we where on ofsc top trail A, they confirmed that we where. I asked their occupation, both diamond drillers, I asked, over 100k a year.......yup.

That is your answer, riders that do not support, and they have the means. It is that way all over the place, some places are worse than others, and they are the areas that cannot support themselves. If these areas cannot or will not help themselves, how on earth can the federation? Let me guess, take even more from the areas that do support. Let me tell you, that well is running dry. It is pretty easy to fix the problems from the cheap seats though.

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If it never worked, how did the system get to where it was in the first place. That is a very short sighted statement. Organized snowmobiling got to where it was because it was supported and it was ALL volunteer. Todays outlook on life, lack of volunteerism and support has brought the system down.

I was riding with a group south of Iroquois Falls, we where stopped for a break, two young fellas on new long tracks stopped to shoot the breeze, I asked why niether of them had a permit. Their reply, they don't ride trails, I asked if we where on ofsc top trail A, they confirmed that we where. I asked their occupation, both diamond drillers, I asked, over 100k a year.......yup.

That is your answer, riders that do not support, and they have the means. It is that way all over the place, some places are worse than others, and they are the areas that cannot support themselves. If these areas cannot or will not help themselves, how on earth can the federation? Let me guess, take even more from the areas that do support. Let me tell you, that well is running dry. It is pretty easy to fix the problems from the cheap seats though.

sad but true

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For those making 100K, give them a reason to buy.  They don't care, they have oodles of disposable income.  For those making less, persuade them to come, they don't have a bunch of money they don't care about, but they want to have a good time.  They might have the money but convince them the experience might be worth the investment.   Ontario is much bigger than Muskoka and areas south, it would be a terrible shame if all of those areas in northern Ontario are lost, you don't even know what you're missing. 

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For those making 100K, give them a reason to buy.  They don't care, they have oodles of disposable income.  For those making less, pursued them to come, they don't have a bunch of money they don't care about, but they want to have a good time.  They might have the money but convince them the experience might be worth the investment.   Ontario is much bigger than Muskoka and areas south, it would be a terrible shame if all of those areas in northern Ontario are lost, you don't even know what you're missing.

Blow it out your hat, I know all about the northern experience. Why don't you quit your whining and ride what the volunteers provide, or sell ur short track buy a mountain sled and ride with the masses in northern ontario that don't need trails or the ofsc. See that is where you don't comprehend, they don't want us there, they prove it by not supporting the ofsc. You want the real northern experience and see everything it has to offer, go find it, its not on topA
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:secret2:

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Blow it out your hat, I know all about the northern experience. Why don't you quit your whining and ride what the volunteers provide, or sell ur short track buy a mountain sled and ride with the masses in northern ontario that don't need trails or the ofsc. See that is where you don't comprehend, they don't want us there, they prove it by not supporting the ofsc. You want the real northern experience and see everything it has to offer, go find it, its not on topA

 

Now, now, no need to get testy.  I'm not whining, I'm expressing my point and will continue to do so, I think that's still allowed. I will continue to contact OFSC, Ontario Tourism and anyone else that will listen about snowmobiling in Northern Ontario and misuse and manipulation of funds by some southern clubs.    I appreciate your short sighted views, they're humorous in a stupid kind of way, highlighted by the "advice" you offer.

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Todays outlook on life, lack of volunteerism and support has brought the system down.

 

 

 

This is probably closest to the reality of the situation. People get used to a good thing and then feel entitled to it. My own opinion is that until Ontario adopts the same attitude is as seen in Quebec, with trails, gas, repairs, food, accomodation, and tourism in lock step with each other, northern trails will continue to close.

 

The OFSC has to lobby for this. Unfortunately, any effort in this direction will be stymied by Ontario political parties' dependence on GTA (Toronto) constituancies for election support and the north's insistance on electing NDP representatives who are good for one thing only - yapping. They couldn't even keep the peace among each other during the recent election.

 

It might be time to bring the mountain to Mohamud - get more of the GTA residents on whom the political parties depend upon involved in sledding, get them travelling up north through various means such as tours, and get them to develop a voice. Middle aged white guys aren't going to do the job anymore.

 

 

I will stray off topic to suggest that if North Bay, Temsikaming, and Cochrane had elected a Liberal MPP last time, the ON Railway wouldn't be closing - the money wasted on closing gas plants - a billion dollars - could have been used to subsidize the railway and buy these voters instead.

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For those making 100K, give them a reason to buy.  They don't care, they have oodles of disposable income.  For those making less, persuade them to come, they don't have a bunch of money they don't care about, but they want to have a good time.  They might have the money but convince them the experience might be worth the investment.   Ontario is much bigger than Muskoka and areas south, it would be a terrible shame if all of those areas in northern Ontario are lost, you don't even know what you're missing. 

 

You're right it would be a shame if those areas are lost. But there is an old phrase God helps those who help themselves. If the people in the area are don't care enough to volunteer or support the system by purchasing a permit then really why should the rest of us prop them up to that great of an extent. The system as it is today does provide a means where by the rest of the clubs prop up others with limited funding but when local support is non existent then what are you really trying to sustain.

 

The system we have today was built by volunteers. Society is constantly changing and the attitude of entitlement in all aspects of life is increasing. Eveyone wants something for nothing, assumes that someone else will always be there to volunteer, just not them and if I can get away with not paying for something why would I be fool enough to pay for it.

 

I have actually seen a person buying their trail permit at one of our local permit sellers being called a fool for buying one by a couple of 20 somethings who told him that the chances of being caught are slim and if you do get caught just pay for the permit then.

 

Morals, ethics and a sense of right and wrong seem to be on the decline.

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The OFSC has to lobby for this. Unfortunately, any effort in this direction will be stymied by Ontario political parties' dependence on GTA (Toronto) constituancies for election support and the north's insistance on electing NDP representatives who are good for one thing only - yapping. They couldn't even keep the peace among each other during the recent election.

 

I will stray off topic to suggest that if North Bay, Temsikaming, and Cochrane had elected a Liberal MPP last time, the ON Railway wouldn't be closing - the money wasted on closing gas plants - a billion dollars - could have been used to subsidize the railway and buy these voters instead.

 

...and yet the North has again voted in another NDP rep into office, so we aren't getting any lobbying support for the North.  Anyone with half an eye and an arshole could see that we needed a voice in the party that is actually in power to get even a once-over.  Now we'll have Gilles Bisson and the like sucking up and getting nothing done for us.  Yeah, they do their best, but they do it with a party that has zero pull.  That is a big part of the problem.

 

The other part is I think, a change in our lifestyle and how electronics (phones, Ipods, computers) are changing what we do for fun.  Go back 20 years ago and we didn't have them, so we had to find something else to do, snowmobiling was the winter activity of choice for many.  We'd also ski, go snowshoeing, ice fishing, etc.  Don't see much of that going on now in this day and age.  I think times have changed, people have changed and the sport has changed as a result.  Add the fact that people are generally more lazy than they used to be, and you don't get the volunteer base you once did.  

 

I think the Chapleau club is feeling the weight of a changing world, and we're seeing the results of it now.

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Now, now, no need to get testy.  I'm not whining, I'm expressing my point and will continue to do so, I think that's still allowed. I will continue to contact OFSC, Ontario Tourism and anyone else that will listen about snowmobiling in Northern Ontario and misuse and manipulation of funds by some southern clubs.    I appreciate your short sighted views, they're humorous in a stupid kind of way, highlighted by the "advice" you offer.

 

There is that sense of entitlement coming out. Those southern clubs sell permits to the snowmobilers who choose the club they want to buy their permit from. Most on the basis of "buy where you ride". Those southern clubs already prop up the other financially challenged clubs, in particular those you refer to as the north to the point of just getting by themselves or actually having a short fall in some cases. Almost all of Muskoka which you refer to as southern clubs are positive contributors to the system in that they distribute funds to other clubs with lesser financial resource. I refuse to make this a north south thing like you seem to be. This is simply clubs with local support and clubs without local support.

 

What I am hearing from you is that they should divert yet even more funds obtained from their club members to support an area where there is a total lack of local support from both volunteers and permit buyers. If the locals don't care enough about having those trails to be able to support and maintain them why should the rest of us who will likely never see or use those trails. I haven't any objection to helping people out so long as I can afford to and the other parameter... I will help them but not do it for them.

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It really is a big double edged sword. you cant get the tourists to come to a non looping area. and you cant get the locals convinced they need to pay to utilized the groomed trails. the locals want local loops that access their favorite lake or camp, and couldnt care less about linking to the next community. and the tourists are the opposite. the ofsc is a linking towns and province group.

 

they tried to get the northern most clubs to only groom top trails. as they did, they ended the local loops and the support of the local permit buyer. now the clubs are spread so thin, and the equipment, is either too old to continue, or leased/bought by the ofsc, and when they fold, the clubs have nothing to work with for the community. i think the locals who are not in the know think, if the club folds, and walks away from the ofsc, they can keep the equipment and start the club over for the good of the community. this is far from the truth with insurance, and buying new/used equipment to replace what is taken, new volunteers needed to start over ect...

 

before the ofsc, the clubs member numbers were larger, and more group/family friendly, and could support themselves. they jumped in the the province wide trail system, and the money it was supposed to bring. then the big economic collapse came, and shows no end in sight. and when that happened, the clubs were already locked into whatever the ofsc dictated, as they had no money or manpower to continue, and the threat the equipement would be removed. so certain people took it upon themselves to try to make it work, until they were bogged down in all kinds of red tape from the community, private parties, the mto, mnr, and the ofsc. which inturn lead to volunteer burn out. and that is where we are today.

 

i know you can lead a horse to water but, you cant make them drink... but, those that are going through this, thinking it wont ever get that bad to effect their riding, are not being realistic in their views. this is a true, not in my backyard mentality. it can, does, and will happen to other areas VERY SOON.  i really think you will see a time when there will only be trails in the cottage country, and mid southern areas due to population and permit sales. and then we can all talk about the good old days, when you could ride coast to coast on a inter-province/intra-province trail system that was made up of just volunteers that we rode into the ground, and destroyed the 30,000+km linked trail system we were all so proud of. Ski

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This is probably closest to the reality of the situation. People get used to a good thing and then feel entitled to it. My own opinion is that until Ontario adopts the same attitude is as seen in Quebec, with trails, gas, repairs, food, accomodation, and tourism in lock step with each other, northern trails will continue to close.

 

The OFSC has to lobby for this. Unfortunately, any effort in this direction will be stymied by Ontario political parties' dependence on GTA (Toronto) constituancies for election support and the north's insistance on electing NDP representatives who are good for one thing only - yapping. They couldn't even keep the peace among each other during the recent election.

 

It might be time to bring the mountain to Mohamud - get more of the GTA residents on whom the political parties depend upon involved in sledding, get them travelling up north through various means such as tours, and get them to develop a voice. Middle aged white guys aren't going to do the job anymore.

 

 

I will stray off topic to suggest that if North Bay, Temsikaming, and Cochrane had elected a Liberal MPP last time, the ON Railway wouldn't be closing - the money wasted on closing gas plants - a billion dollars - could have been used to subsidize the railway and buy these voters instead.

 

I know a number of people in the GTA that would believe that they would love to become snowmobilers but face challenges to doing that. They don't have cottages where they can leave their sleds and just drive to on the weekends. OR They drive small cars that will not tow a snowmobile trailer. OR They don't have space in their driveways for a snowmobile trailer and if they did the bylaws, neighbours and perhaps their wives wouldn't allow it. OR They live in a condo and there simply isn't a possibility of somewhere to park it.

 

I hear of these marina operators that lament how tough it is to get by at times running a seasonal business. There are lots of people with boats who cannot trailer them or store them and keep them at marinas and live in the GTA. There is an opportunity for money to be made and new riders to enter the system. Many of these marinas are on or close enough to the trails that you can ride from them to the trails. Offer and promote to the people in the GTA the opportunity to park their sleds in a secure environment for the winter and store them in the summer. Now those challenges are overcome. They take their suits and gear, get in that small car and drive to their sleds. Perhaps not just the marinas but perhaps the resorts that struggle in winter as well. Offer a package. Storage for your sled and a room for each Sat night of the season with the option to add extra nights.

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what i would like to do is have a discussion without someone saying "it will never happen in my area". try this....

 

What would YOU do if the ffc2 came out today, and told your club, and your district, no more local trails, top trails only. what would YOU do?, what would the club do? what would the local residents do?

 

Ski

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It really is a big double edged sword. you cant get the tourists to come to a non looping area. and you cant get the locals convinced they need to pay to utilized the groomed trails. the locals want local loops that access their favorite lake or camp, and couldnt care less about linking to the next community. and the tourists are the opposite. the ofsc is a linking towns and province group.

 

they tried to get the northern most clubs to only groom top trails. as they did, they ended the local loops and the support of the local permit buyer. now the clubs are spread so thin, and the equipment, is either too old to continue, or leased/bought by the ofsc, and when they fold, the clubs have nothing to work with for the community. i think the locals who are not in the know think, if the club folds, and walks away from the ofsc, they can keep the equipment and start the club over for the good of the community. this is far from the truth with insurance, and buying new/used equipment to replace what is taken, new volunteers needed to start over ect...

 

before the ofsc, the clubs member numbers were larger, and more group/family friendly, and could support themselves. they jumped in the the province wide trail system, and the money it was supposed to bring. then the big economic collapse came, and shows no end in sight. and when that happened, the clubs were already locked into whatever the ofsc dictated, as they had no money or manpower to continue, and the threat the equipement would be removed. so certain people took it upon themselves to try to make it work, until they were bogged down in all kinds of red tape from the community, private parties, the mto, mnr, and the ofsc. which inturn lead to volunteer burn out. and that is where we are today.

 

i know you can lead a horse to water but, you cant make them drink... but, those that are going through this, thinking it wont ever get that bad to effect their riding, are not being realistic in their views. this is a true, not in my backyard mentality. it can, does, and will happen to other areas VERY SOON.  i really think you will see a time when there will only be trails in the cottage country, and mid southern areas due to population and permit sales. and then we can all talk about the good old days, when you could ride coast to coast on a inter-province/intra-province trail system that was made up of just volunteers that we rode into the ground, and destroyed the 30,000+km linked trail system we were all so proud of. Ski

they used to have it and support it, they quit supporting it and lost it, the federation took money from other clubs to support it. In hind sight that was a mistake, if they had of axed it right then it would have been gone. Many people seem to be very ungrateful that federation made an attempt to keep the trail system linked and at least some sort of trail going. Instead of picking up their socks and getting the loops back with local support they just let it go, and the locals DON'T CARE, they don't want it.

 

 

     Ya more areas will close, but there are many that are self sufficient, and as long as the permit buyer feels they are getting a good deal for their money, the system will keep going in some capacity. Some people refuse to understand the majority travels very little. I have always traveled, some years more then others, I will continue to do so, and go where there is riding available, but I understand why things are the way they are, and they are good honest reasons, not corrupt reasons or self righteous reasons like some like to believe. If areas can't survive with FFC, then they aren't meant to survive. FFC isn't perfect, but it will keep more clubs operational then not. It is very hard to understand if you are not directly involved, and it is easy to say there is a better system, I have been on both sides of the fence, as have many many others.   

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Read on ASPS's facebook page that the club in Chapleau has folded. Bad news for Wawa and Dub and the rest of the districts.

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misuse and manipulation of funds by some southern clubs.

With a statement like that, I would expect you have documentation to back it up. I would be very interested in seeing it so it can be looked into. I do know blaitent misuse of permit money is not tolerated, actions are taken to stop this. Please pm me the information and I will make sure it gets in the proper hands to be delt with, thanks.

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the headline is chapleau club folding. here is the notice.

 

IMPORTANT MEETING
NOTICE
To all local residents, business people and vested Community leaders interested in the future of the Chapleau Arctic Watershed Snowmobile club who has currently folded as a club.

OFSC District 13 – Algoma Sno-Plan Affiliation
is calling a public meeting in the basement of the Township of Chapleau Municipal office
WEDNESDAY June 25 at 7:00 pm

We have been delivered the bad news that the Chapleau club has folded which was devastating news to us as their trails are the only connection to our northern clubs of Wawa Dubreuilville as well as our neighboring Districts 14 & 15. It is our hope that a resolve can be accomplished through this public meeting. Everyone is welcome.

 

if no one steps up in town, it is doom and gloom for the community and surrounding connected communities for snowmobiling based economics. with map printing, commitments, and permits getting close to deadline, something DRASTIC will have to change SOON. or they wont even be on the maps. it is a sad state of affairs, this year was supposed to be THE year they fixed the F trail between flame lake, and aubrey falls to make it more easily groomed. Ski

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the headline is chapleau club folding. here is the notice.

 

IMPORTANT MEETING

NOTICE

To all local residents, business people and vested Community leaders interested in the future of the Chapleau Arctic Watershed Snowmobile club who has currently folded as a club.

OFSC District 13 – Algoma Sno-Plan Affiliation

is calling a public meeting in the basement of the Township of Chapleau Municipal office

WEDNESDAY June 25 at 7:00 pm

We have been delivered the bad news that the Chapleau club has folded which was devastating news to us as their trails are the only connection to our northern clubs of Wawa Dubreuilville as well as our neighboring Districts 14 & 15. It is our hope that a resolve can be accomplished through this public meeting. Everyone is welcome.

 

if no one steps up in town, it is doom and gloom for the community and surrounding connected communities for snowmobiling based economics. with map printing, commitments, and permits getting close to deadline, something DRASTIC will have to change SOON. or they wont even be on the maps. it is a sad state of affairs, this year was supposed to be THE year they fixed the F trail between flame lake, and aubrey falls to make it more easily groomed. Ski

key words, it starts there, if they don't want it or want to do the work to have a functional club, there is nothing anyone else can do. I can't run it from here, can you run it from there?

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It really is a big double edged sword. you cant get the tourists to come to a non looping area. and you cant get the locals convinced they need to pay to utilized the groomed trails. the locals want local loops that access their favorite lake or camp, and couldnt care less about linking to the next community. and the tourists are the opposite. the ofsc is a linking towns and province group.

 

they tried to get the northern most clubs to only groom top trails. as they did, they ended the local loops and the support of the local permit buyer. now the clubs are spread so thin, and the equipment, is either too old to continue, or leased/bought by the ofsc, and when they fold, the clubs have nothing to work with for the community. i think the locals who are not in the know think, if the club folds, and walks away from the ofsc, they can keep the equipment and start the club over for the good of the community. this is far from the truth with insurance, and buying new/used equipment to replace what is taken, new volunteers needed to start over ect...

 

before the ofsc, the clubs member numbers were larger, and more group/family friendly, and could support themselves. they jumped in the the province wide trail system, and the money it was supposed to bring. then the big economic collapse came, and shows no end in sight. and when that happened, the clubs were already locked into whatever the ofsc dictated, as they had no money or manpower to continue, and the threat the equipement would be removed. so certain people took it upon themselves to try to make it work, until they were bogged down in all kinds of red tape from the community, private parties, the mto, mnr, and the ofsc. which inturn lead to volunteer burn out. and that is where we are today.

 

i know you can lead a horse to water but, you cant make them drink... but, those that are going through this, thinking it wont ever get that bad to effect their riding, are not being realistic in their views. this is a true, not in my backyard mentality. it can, does, and will happen to other areas VERY SOON.  i really think you will see a time when there will only be trails in the cottage country, and mid southern areas due to population and permit sales. and then we can all talk about the good old days, when you could ride coast to coast on a inter-province/intra-province trail system that was made up of just volunteers that we rode into the ground, and destroyed the 30,000+km linked trail system we were all so proud of. Ski

As I see it, from a Northern Perspective, this is as close to the truth as I've seen on this site (apart from my own ramblings, of course)  :) 

There was a time when I would get my back up over topics like this, and what I saw as short sighted comments by some folks on the site, but the reality is that the locals (up here anyway) Do Not Care about the OFSC and the trails anymore.

I feel for guys like Akron.  I used to volunteer for my local club and tried hard to make trails that the touring sledder could enjoy, along with the locals.  Then the Econmy tanked, jobs were lost, snowmobiling participation went down and the permit price went up, our dollars to work with went down, so the local loops had to close, and we lost the rest of the locals,  Blah, Blah Blah, i've said all this before. 

I don't know, I guess you need to dig in your trenches, try to preserve what's left, and keep those trails the most people want to pay to ride.  Some day in the future, maybe the environment will change and it will make sense to try it a gain, but for now, I see a gradual (or quick?) withdrawl from the hinterlands by OFSC. 

Good Luck with it!

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