whiskywizard Posted October 18, 2013 Share Posted October 18, 2013 Going by "3. (1)" How do you prove to the cop that you have filled out the application. If a cop asks for it and you start to hassle him about the laws you are probably going to be stuck there for a while. It's much easier to keep the copy you get with the permit with the sleds ownership and insurance. I hope you're also carrying evidence that you filled out the form to get your driver's licence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoso Posted October 18, 2013 Share Posted October 18, 2013 From the Motorized Snow Vehicles Act: Trail permits 3. (1) A person shall not be issued a trail permit unless the person completes the application in full and pays the fee established by the Minister. O. Reg. 185/01, s. 3 (1). (2) A trail permit is valid until the 31st day of May after the date the permit is issued. O. Reg. 185/01, s. 3 (2). (3) A trail permit shall be affixed to the motorized snow vehicle, (a) at the bottom edge of the centre of the windshield; or ( on top of and to the left of centre of the engine cowling as close as possible to the centre of the windshield, without obscuring or being obscured by the registration number required to be displayed on the vehicle. O. Reg. 185/01, s. 3 (3). Going by "3. (1)" How do you prove to the cop that you have filled out the application. If a cop asks for it and you start to hassle him about the laws you are probably going to be stuck there for a while. It's much easier to keep the copy you get with the permit with the sleds ownership and insurance. The proof you filled out the form is the fact that you were given a permit. The law only states that you shall not be issued a permit if you do not fill out the form. Again, you are not required to carry any documents pertaining to the permit, that is a fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasquatch777 Posted October 18, 2013 Share Posted October 18, 2013 The proof you filled out the form is the fact that you were given a permit. The law only states that you shall not be issued a permit if you do not fill out the form. Again, you are not required to carry any documents pertaining to the permit, that is a fact. I have a licence plate on my truck, car and sled yet when stopped I am asked to show my registration paperwork! All that info is on file and when an officer runs your plates! I've sold permits for years and was told by the OFSC that the green slip must be carried as proof the permit is valid. I have seen it written but can't remember if its on the permit application of a different piece of paperwork that the OFSC handed out. I also seen in a sled mag an article from a person who writes for the mag about their encounter with the OPP to the same effect. In that article it talked about people including himself that where told to remove their sleds from the trail because of lack of or improper documentation of the permit. So even if the permit is displayed how do you prove the permit application was correct and paid for? Your haveing one (permit) stuck to your windshield does not prove its not stolen. I mean I see your point and I argued that I have the permit why do I need to carry the green copy (something I never carried for years)? You see the number sticker just like on your truck or car or sled registration matches the sticker on the plate or in this case permit. On every page of the application for the permit a numbered sticker is applied. That green copy is your proof that the application was processed and purchased properly and is supposed to be why you need to carry it. Same as why you carry and show your vehicle registration to the officer and you must show it! That sticker on the registration matches the plate sticker its your only proof that your plates are valid! Your drivers license has your picture as proof it belongs to you. Your registration and permit do not all they have is a number issued at time of purchase! How it was explained to me! How others may want to interprit the law is up to them. I carry my green copy with my sled registration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
02Sled Posted October 18, 2013 Share Posted October 18, 2013 I haven't carried the green copy and maybe I should. Bottom line... it's not a big deal to stick it in a pocket along with the insurance and ownership. They go on the inner jacket pocket at the start of the season and stay there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sledguy74 Posted October 18, 2013 Share Posted October 18, 2013 I prefer not to be hassled so I have carried my green slip with my insurance slip......no big deal. Never been asked to see it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoso Posted October 18, 2013 Share Posted October 18, 2013 I have a licence plate on my truck, car and sled yet when stopped I am asked to show my registration paperwork! All that info is on file and when an officer runs your plates! I've sold permits for years and was told by the OFSC that the green slip must be carried as proof the permit is valid. I have seen it written but can't remember if its on the permit application of a different piece of paperwork that the OFSC handed out. I also seen in a sled mag an article from a person who writes for the mag about their encounter with the OPP to the same effect. In that article it talked about people including himself that where told to remove their sleds from the trail because of lack of or improper documentation of the permit. So even if the permit is displayed how do you prove the permit application was correct and paid for? Your haveing one (permit) stuck to your windshield does not prove its not stolen. I mean I see your point and I argued that I have the permit why do I need to carry the green copy (something I never carried for years)? You see the number sticker just like on your truck or car or sled registration matches the sticker on the plate or in this case permit. On every page of the application for the permit a numbered sticker is applied. That green copy is your proof that the application was processed and purchased properly and is supposed to be why you need to carry it. Same as why you carry and show your vehicle registration to the officer and you must show it! That sticker on the registration matches the plate sticker its your only proof that your plates are valid! Your drivers license has your picture as proof it belongs to you. Your registration and permit do not all they have is a number issued at time of purchase! How it was explained to me! How others may want to interprit the law is up to them. I carry my green copy with my sled registration. You are wrong, there is NO law that requires you carry any paperwork in regards to the permit. Any cop that asks for it has no right to do so, very simple really. Just because people think there is a law does not make it so, I can find the law that states you must carry your ownership in a car, now go find a law that says you have to carry paperwork for your OFSC permit. I will wait, but you will never find it, because there is no such law. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasquatch777 Posted October 18, 2013 Share Posted October 18, 2013 I prefer not to be hassled so I have carried my green slip with my insurance slip......no big deal. Never been asked to see it. I've never be asked to see it as well but when the OPP are looking for stolen permits as has happened more then once its their only way of verifying your is legit! I've passed through a few checks and the just smiled when they saw the Permit and waved me on my way. I mean when they give me my permit and paperwork its not a big deal to put my copy of the application in the same folder I carry my registration and insurance card in! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Domino Posted October 18, 2013 Share Posted October 18, 2013 From the Motorized Snow Vehicles Act: Trail permits 3. (1) A person shall not be issued a trail permit unless the person completes the application in full and pays the fee established by the Minister. O. Reg. 185/01, s. 3 (1). (2) A trail permit is valid until the 31st day of May after the date the permit is issued. O. Reg. 185/01, s. 3 (2). (3) A trail permit shall be affixed to the motorized snow vehicle, (a) at the bottom edge of the centre of the windshield; or ( on top of and to the left of centre of the engine cowling as close as possible to the centre of the windshield, without obscuring or being obscured by the registration number required to be displayed on the vehicle. O. Reg. 185/01, s. 3 (3). Going by "3. (1)" How do you prove to the cop that you have filled out the application. If a cop asks for it and you start to hassle him about the laws you are probably going to be stuck there for a while. It's much easier to keep the copy you get with the permit with the sleds ownership and insurance. If you had not filled out the application you would not have been issued a permit. That is the law as described. So for one to have a permit they must have filled out the application. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve c Posted October 18, 2013 Share Posted October 18, 2013 The proof you filled out the form is the fact that you were given a permit. The law only states that you shall not be issued a permit if you do not fill out the form. Again, you are not required to carry any documents pertaining to the permit, that is a fact. So if i see that my neighbor has an envelope in his mailbox and it is his permit. If i take the permit and put it on my sled, then because i have the permit I must have filled out an application and now the permit is mine? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mossy Posted October 18, 2013 Share Posted October 18, 2013 So if i see that my neighbor has an envelope in his mailbox and it is his permit. If i take the permit and put it on my sled, then because i have the permit I must have filled out an application and now the permit is mine? Or you picked one up off kijiji and it's for another sled and not yours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sledjunk Posted October 18, 2013 Share Posted October 18, 2013 Nevertheless, zozo is correct that there is nothing in the MSVA that specifies that you carry the copy with you. While it 'might' avoid confusion when stopped, the only written advice is, IIRC, on the green copy where is says that you are 'requested' to carry the copy with you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasquatch777 Posted October 18, 2013 Share Posted October 18, 2013 You are wrong, there is NO law that requires you carry any paperwork in regards to the permit. Any cop that asks for it has no right to do so, very simple really. Just because people think there is a law does not make it so, I can find the law that states you must carry your ownership in a car, now go find a law that says you have to carry paperwork for your OFSC permit. I will wait, but you will never find it, because there is no such law. If its such a big issue for you then don't carry one! OFSC says carry it, you disagree! It helps the OPP when looking for stolen permits, I don't see the harm unless you have a stolen permit or are illeagaly using a permit from another sled! The green slip throws a monkey wrench into O2's if your main sled breaks down get a replacement permit and stick it on your spare sled idea that people use! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasquatch777 Posted October 18, 2013 Share Posted October 18, 2013 Or you picked one up off kijiji and it's for another sled and not yours. The bad part is in the mag a guy had put his permit on his wife sled and visa versa! The OPP made him exit the trail! Other side of coin and a day with an overzelous Officer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasquatch777 Posted October 18, 2013 Share Posted October 18, 2013 Nevertheless, zozo is correct that there is nothing in the MSVA that specifies that you carry the copy with you. While it 'might' avoid confusion when stopped, the only written advice is, IIRC, on the green copy where is says that you are 'requested' to carry the copy with you. Ahh I knew I read it somewhere! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoso Posted October 18, 2013 Share Posted October 18, 2013 So if i see that my neighbor has an envelope in his mailbox and it is his permit. If i take the permit and put it on my sled, then because i have the permit I must have filled out an application and now the permit is mine? It does not matter, and does not change the fact that there is no law stating you have to carry paperwork. Maybe there should be, but at this time there is not. I do not want to see them create a new law to hassle people at stops even more than they already do. but if permit theft is that big a deal and we need to have police ask us for documents to make sure the permit is ours every time we see them, well then I guess we will lose a few more sledders due to police harrasment on the trails. Call you MP and get him going on an amendment to the MSVA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoso Posted October 18, 2013 Share Posted October 18, 2013 If its such a big issue for you then don't carry one! OFSC says carry it, you disagree! It helps the OPP when looking for stolen permits, I don't see the harm unless you have a stolen permit or are illeagaly using a permit from another sled! The green slip throws a monkey wrench into O2's if your main sled breaks down get a replacement permit and stick it on your spare sled idea that people use! It is not a big deal to me, not at all, I was simply stating a fact, the fact that police have no right to demand paperwork, that being said, there are alot of police that do not even know the laws and make them up as evidenced by the article you quoted, so why not stuff it in with your ownership and insurance to avoid a hassle by a LEO that is ignorant to the law. I know one thing, if I was to buy a permit today and a sled in two months, I sure as crap would not carry the paperwork so a cop could kick me off the trails if I did show him the permit did not match the vin on the sled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dweese Posted October 18, 2013 Share Posted October 18, 2013 It is not a big deal to me, not at all, I was simply stating a fact, the fact that police have no right to demand paperwork, that being said, there are alot of police that do not even know the laws and make them up as evidenced by the article you quoted, so why not stuff it in with your ownership and insurance to avoid a hassle by a LEO that is ignorant to the law. I know one thing, if I was to buy a permit today and a sled in two months, I sure as crap would not carry the paperwork so a cop could kick me off the trails if I did show him the permit did not match the vin on the sled.Your right, some cops don't know the law when it comes to sleds. But let's say your out loving a days right, and you get stopped by a cop is in a mood, he'll ask to see whatever he wants, he is in control of the stop, and you'll be there as long as he wants you there.... If he is forced to stand along a trail in -15 weather and doesn't want to be there. If he wants to see he green copy, and you don't have it, he can write you a ticket and you can fight it in court. Sure you will win but you've wasted a day off work, and screwed up your day of riding. Yes it's not the law, it's a suggestion. But follow the suggestion and carry the stupid green paper (I carry the yellow copy as well) so when you do run in to that a-ho cop, it's one less thing he can try and screw with you, so you back on the trail with no headache. I got stopped once about 6 years ago, an was held up for 45mins as this cop tried to find something to ticket me on. Asked for everything, even checked permit numbers with green paper, even checked my plate sticker numbers with the sticker on the back of my ownership. Cop was pissed to be on trail dudy, it was cold and he wanted to write a ticket.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbakernbay Posted October 18, 2013 Share Posted October 18, 2013 No consistency in surcharge costs. I just bought my Classic Trail Permit for $140 with NO handling or delivery charges as I just chose regular mail delivery. Early, Early Bird is $180 + $7.50 charge to cover handling, credit card fee and mailing which I think is quite reasonable. The Americans get dinged an additional $20.00 on top of the $7.50 for additional delivery charges which I can only presume is super fast with a signed receipt and tracking number. The District just advised me that the Club will be billed for $7.50 for the Classic TP sale done online. Why not be consistent and charge the purchaser the $7.50 for the Classic just like the Early, Early Bird? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasquatch777 Posted October 18, 2013 Share Posted October 18, 2013 It is not a big deal to me, not at all, I was simply stating a fact, the fact that police have no right to demand paperwork, that being said, there are alot of police that do not even know the laws and make them up as evidenced by the article you quoted, so why not stuff it in with your ownership and insurance to avoid a hassle by a LEO that is ignorant to the law. I know one thing, if I was to buy a permit today and a sled in two months, I sure as crap would not carry the paperwork so a cop could kick me off the trails if I did show him the permit did not match the vin on the sled. I wouldn't either! I would think that if permits are stolen then there should be a list of the stolen numbers and those out on patrol shoulod have that list. That was my argument because I never carried the green copy till a few years ago! I'm just happy that someone bought a pass and I could care less what sled they put it on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sledguy74 Posted October 18, 2013 Share Posted October 18, 2013 I wouldn't either! I would think that if permits are stolen then there should be a list of the stolen numbers and those out on patrol shoulod have that list. That was my argument because I never carried the green copy till a few years ago! I'm just happy that someone bought a pass and I could care less what sled they put it on. X2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreezerBurnt Posted October 19, 2013 Share Posted October 19, 2013 Opp will ask for the paper work and verify the permit numbers match. I ran into them several times last winter, they are out there. and you can tell sorry officer have a nice day I do not have the paperwork its in the filling cabinet at home or garbage there is no charges or law stating you need to carry the paperwork Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FreezerBurnt Posted October 19, 2013 Share Posted October 19, 2013 I have a licence plate on my truck, car and sled yet when stopped I am asked to show my registration paperwork! All that info is on file and when an officer runs your plates! I've sold permits for years and was told by the OFSC that the green slip must be carried as proof the permit is valid. I have seen it written but can't remember if its on the permit application of a different piece of paperwork that the OFSC handed out. I also seen in a sled mag an article from a person who writes for the mag about their encounter with the OPP to the same effect. In that article it talked about people including himself that where told to remove their sleds from the trail because of lack of or improper documentation of the permit. So even if the permit is displayed how do you prove the permit application was correct and paid for? Your haveing one (permit) stuck to your windshield does not prove its not stolen. I mean I see your point and I argued that I have the permit why do I need to carry the green copy (something I never carried for years)? You see the number sticker just like on your truck or car or sled registration matches the sticker on the plate or in this case permit. On every page of the application for the permit a numbered sticker is applied. That green copy is your proof that the application was processed and purchased properly and is supposed to be why you need to carry it. Same as why you carry and show your vehicle registration to the officer and you must show it! That sticker on the registration matches the plate sticker its your only proof that your plates are valid! Your drivers license has your picture as proof it belongs to you. Your registration and permit do not all they have is a number issued at time of purchase! How it was explained to me! How others may want to interprit the law is up to them. I carry my green copy with my sled registration. Registration it is the EXACT same with cars and sleds So if you have a Provincial Park Pass do you need the paperwork with it? Do you carry the paperwork with you Outdoor card? We have a cop on another forum that works with SAVE and he clearly states there is NO law This all comes down to some overzealous cops in Southern Ontario I am sure everyone remembers the Custom registration Numbers fiasco caused by the police in Southern Ontario 10 years ago who thought the law was sticker plate only Then you got cops who try to ticket people with the plate sticker on the tunnel yet the law there clearly states you can have a plate sticker on the tunnel of your sled It is a plain case of ignorance of the law Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasquatch777 Posted October 20, 2013 Share Posted October 20, 2013 Registration it is the EXACT same with cars and sleds So if you have a Provincial Park Pass do you need the paperwork with it? Do you carry the paperwork with you Outdoor card? We have a cop on another forum that works with SAVE and he clearly states there is NO law This all comes down to some overzealous cops in Southern Ontario I am sure everyone remembers the Custom registration Numbers fiasco caused by the police in Southern Ontario 10 years ago who thought the law was sticker plate only Then you got cops who try to ticket people with the plate sticker on the tunnel yet the law there clearly states you can have a plate sticker on the tunnel of your sled It is a plain case of ignorance of the law I see you highlighted everything but the part where I said it was how it was explained to me! I disagreed with the whole green copy issue from the time I first heard it. I now carry the green copy at the OFSC's request to save myself some possible hassle but have never been asked for it! The whole thing is probably a non issue, but the bright side is we can have fun coming up with all the things don't carry paperwork for! Like my birth certificate or my boat operators card but I do have to carry my boat registration! Anyone want to add more. It is the OFSC that is asking you to carry it! Maybe that is how the whole thing started! I wish some OPP officer would ask me right now for my green copy as it would mean I'm out riding instead of at work! It is snowing out and the grass is turning white! Ahh what a sight to see! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sledhead Posted October 20, 2013 Share Posted October 20, 2013 I have been trying for the last few days to go on line to buy my permits, but can't seem to register on the site. Are they having some issues? I just seem to keep going in circles. Starting to get a little ticked off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbakernbay Posted October 20, 2013 Share Posted October 20, 2013 Sorry to hear that, my Classic TP purchase was done in under 2 minutes as all my personal & sled info appeared on the screen, all I had to do was type in my credit card info. Very slick actually, disappointed that some are having problems. I'm doing two for a friend this afternoon so I'll report on what happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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