Ministry of Labour Charges Against Volunteer Fire Department

[bbakernbay]

NORTH BAY - The province wants health and safety charges to be heard in front of a judge instead of a justice of the peace involving a volunteer firefighter killed near Powassan while he was on his way to a house fire.

Paul Nelson, 21, died when the fire truck he was driving left the road and crashed into a ditch on Highway 534 on Dec. 27, 2011 in the Township of Nipissing.

Nelson had been on the job 16 months and was alone in the pumper truck. He was pronounced dead at the scene, about 35 kilometres west of Powassan.

Road conditions at the time of the collision had been described as icy with snowy and slushy sections.

A North Bay court heard Tuesday that a trial could take 10 to 13 days to deal with Labour Ministry charges under Ontario's Occupational Health and Safety Act.

David Winnitoy, the lawyer representing the township, said a pretrial was already held with a justice of the peace regarding the health and safety charges and civil actions.

A prosecutor with the Ministry of the Attorney General which represents the Labour Ministry said it's in the public's interest to instead proceed in front of a judge.

A pretrial between the province, the defence and a judge is scheduled for July 29.

The charges are scheduled to be back in a North Bay court on Sept. 3 to set a trial date.

The township was charged a year after the death with failing to provide information, instruction and supervision to a worker to protect the health or safety of the worker.

That charge involves failing to provide adequate information, instruction and supervision to a worker to ensure safe operation of a pumper truck in winter conditions.

The township is also charged with failing to take all precautions reasonable in the circumstances for the protection of a worker.

It's accused of failing to take one or more reasonable precautions, including ensuring a worker was adequately trained, experienced and competent to safely drive a pumper fire truck in winter conditions; establishing and maintaining adequate procedures and protocols to ensure the assignment of trained, experienced and competent firefighters to safely drive fire apparatus in response to an emergency; and maintaining an adequate number of trained, experienced and competent firefighters in its fire department to safely drive fire apparatus in response to an emergency.

Winnitoy compared the charges to a similar prosecution involving health and safety charges against the Meaford and District Fire Department in southwestern Ontario.

That trial was held before a justice of the peace and involved two volunteer firefighters injured at the scene of a burning restaurant in 2009.

The defence argued there are no legal standards for firefighers' equipment, work practices or safety procedures.

The ministry suggested health and safety guidelines for Ontario fire services sets the standard for the province.

The defence said this would have a “chilling effect” on volunteer firefighters across the province if the ministry treats these guidelines as regulations.

Five Labour Ministry charges were withdrawn against the fire department, and a fifth was dismissed.

 

[revrnd]

I can see it now, "It was too snowy for us to send firetrucks to your house fire."

[bbakernbay]

Sounds similar to the charges laid against the Parry Sound Snowmobile Association after the unfortunate death of a Groomer Operator several years ago.

[dweese]

I can see it now, "It was too snowy for us to send firetrucks to your house fire."

I went in the ditch about 10 years ago after hitting some black ice. Cop didn't charge me, but because there was a report, 6 months later my insurance company jacked my rates. Because I chose to drive in conditions beyond my driving skill so I was careless in thier mind.

Stupidly is becoming a normal thing now adays.

[Fred Quimby]

This is why there is a never ending paper trail of training documents that accompany every firefighter throughout their career. It matters not if they are volunteer or career firefighter. It's all about the proper level of training and then the paperwork to back it up.

[Viperules700]

This is why there is a never ending paper trail of training documents that accompany every firefighter throughout their career. It matters not if they are volunteer or career firefighter. It's all

about the proper level of training and then the

paperwork to back it up.

I pay extra insurance too, since I am farther from the fire hydrant! So many stupid things! The labour laws are so stupid it isn't funny.

[Lep]

This is why there is a never ending paper trail of training documents that accompany every firefighter throughout their career. It matters not if they are volunteer or career firefighter. It's all about the proper level of training and then the paperwork to back it up.

Fred Q I agree but this is getting to be stupid....pretty soon we all will need paperwork/training on the proper way to wipe your own arse.

[Viperules700]

Fred Q I agree but this is getting to be stupid....pretty soon we all will need paperwork/training on the proper way to wipe your own arse.

No buddy system at your work Lep, for going to the can?

[Ultrafrozen]

I went in the ditch about 10 years ago after hitting some black ice. Cop didn't charge me, but because there was a report, 6 months later my insurance company jacked my rates. Because I chose to drive in conditions beyond my driving skill so I was careless in thier mind.

Stupidly is becoming a normal thing now adays.

You should have sued the MTO for not "ensuring a driver was adequately trained, experienced and competent to safely drive" on ice when they issued you a driver's license.  It's not as if you deliberately went driving in an ice storm.

[Wildbill]

I don't know where to stand on this one Twice I have been scared for my safety responding to fire calls with others at the wheel after twenty one years in the department if I am not the driver I usually take my own vehicle. There are a lot of great dedicated individuals in the fire department ,however we do get more than our fair share of "heroes" that try too hard for reality and put others at risk. If that was the case here there is an issue,

[FreezerBurnt]

I can see it now, "It was too snowy for us to send firetrucks to your house fire."

they already use that excuse when plowing hwys

 

There is no longer room in the world for common sense

[revrnd]

Fred Q I agree but this is getting to be stupid....pretty soon we all will need paperwork/training on the proper way to wipe your own arse.

 

We're already there. My workplace had SOP sheets taped to everything, including how to clean the microwave. We half joked that they'd soon be putting them on the drinking fountains.

[Domino]

We're already there. My workplace had SOP sheets taped to everything, including how to clean the microwave. We half joked that they'd soon be putting them on the drinking fountains.

 

 

Just wait for the next fatal water fountain drowning.....  SOP coming your way!!

[Dave K]

From what I understand from our training committee on our department.

 

The driver that was killed was not licensed by the MTO with the  proper licencing to drive that truck.  The Fire department had  misread a part of the law that says in an emergency situation an unlicensed driver can drive a vehicle that he is not licensed for.

 

That doesn't mean that he can drive a water tanker too and from the scene hauling water, however if that truck (or any other vehicle) was in danger on a scene, any member of the FD could hop into it, regardless of class of licence and move it away from the scene to safety.

[martin1]

Makes good sense to me to Dave K.  Is that going to take 10-13 days in court to go through all that??  

[FreezerBurnt]

We're already there. My workplace had SOP sheets taped to everything, including how to clean the microwave. We half joked that they'd soon be putting them on the drinking fountains.

We have to have SWP(Safe Work Procedures) on walking too

 

It's ridiculious

[Dave K]

Makes good sense to me to Dave K.  Is that going to take 10-13 days in court to go through all that??  

We, unfortunately lost two men a few years ago in Listowel.  Our chief said that the MOL asks anything they want to see if your records etc are all up to date.  At one time they asked the chief for the type and serial number of the pagers that these two men carried. 

 

I think a lot of time will be spent on silly things like that.

 

There was reference made to the Meaford fire upthread.  I heard them speak a few years back.

 

According to the MOL, when the firemen were pulled from the building, the inoperable air pack should have been carefully removed without damaging something, set aside as evidence, and when that is done, then you may continue with the first aid on the patient.

[Fred Quimby]

I have to jump back in here. The MOL is there to protect lives. The lives of responders and the public. What may seem like a silly waste of a time question or probe on the MOL's behalf is meant to form part of a bigger picture. Things like pagers, radio systems, are all very sketchy in some areas and it could mean the difference between life and death, catching the page and being able to respond, or missing the alarm entirely. I've seen far too many people driving fire apparatus when they had no business doing so. The saying goes...just because you "can drive a fire truck" doesn't mean you should be driving a fire truck! Tankers that carry 1000 gals are very tricky on corners or unstable surfaces. The incorrect application of even the "jake" brake could cause an inexperienced operator to foul up and cause a roll over.

[JRNJSM]

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[smokeater466]

I am a professional fire fighter for 23 years. I have served on health and safety committees at the local and provincial level. I have also sat on the Ontario Fire Service Health and Safety Advisory (Section 21) Committee which develops guidance material for fire departments to consider to protect the h&s of their workers. A Fire Department has a legal responsibility to ensure those driving their apparatus are properly licenced for that class of vehicle and further to that have recieved specific training in driving an emergency vehicle including characteristics of weight and weather conditions effect on braking and control.

 

What may seem trivial will hopefully highlight lessons learned and ensure that steps are taken to avoid a re-occurance of this tragedy. Whatever fines are levied if any will not break any municipality and will fall far short of providing adequately for the loss of life.

[Domino]

The MOL is on an unfortunate power trip and individuals often forget what their role is.

 

It is very unfortunate that this young man died.  I feel for his family.   For the purpose of the discussion, lets not get personal and take this specific incident out oif the examples.

 

The argument seem to focus on why it is always someone else's responsibility (Liable) to protect someone from themselves. 

 

Why when I young man in his early 20's is climbing a tower and falls is it always the employers issue?  The truth be told, it often is not.  You can train, you can teach, but you can't hold there hand every step of the way during the job.  If the employer trains the employee on how to do the job and then he/she fails to conduct themselves accordingly, why would the employer be liable?

 

 

If you are not trained or feel you are competent, don't do it!  If every volunteer needs to be trained for every possible risk, then we will see the end to volunteering.  The costs of training alone will make it prohibitive.

[Sasquatch777]

So was he sent or did he just jump in and go? Guess without any real facts its just he said she said. Guy is dead, that sucks, MOL likes to anal prob. A thousand unrelated things will have to change because of it! Hopefully the one thing needed to save someone elses life will be addressed as well. Nuff said on that! Everything said past this point has nothing personally to do with the poor fellow who lost his life! Its about people in general!

 

World we live in is fraut with overkill on everything. As a trainer I've seen it all and rewrote hundreds of manuals because someone broke a nail or scratched a pinky! Its just plain hard to protect people, there is so many variables! This protectionist society we live in is great except no one takes responsibility for thier own actions anymore. Gaurding a gaurd to keep someone from sticking a finger into moving equipment makes me go HUH! Signs, training, safety lockouts and still someone will try to reach around a gaurd, fail to read a sign and put themselves in danger! Then after the fact seek any conclusion that puts training or signage or gaurding as the fault! People today are mostly brain dead!

[Viperules700]

I seen a maintaince supervisor escorted out the door, because the millwrights were told not to lockout equipment for quick fixes, because it affected production numbers. I personally seen maintaince workers putting guards back on, with equipment running. Is it worth it to take a chance for something that only takes a few extra minutes to do. Happens everyday, all for the sake of getting a few extra products out the door.

[Fred Quimby]

The MOL is not the enemy. The enemy is the employee who refuses to follow procedures, policies, established safe practises. Use safety equipment, work outside of their scope of skill.

[JRNJSM]

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