Canuck Posted December 19, 2012 Share Posted December 19, 2012 Nah. I know him. Great guy. There are two sides to this and it's obvious that northern, non-groomed riders have an issue with increased val tag charges. After Service Ontario takes its percentage for processing, I wonder what we'll be left with anyways. Really appreciate the numbers, WB. Don't believe that the matrix was ever applied in a declining sales - fluctuating years grooming environment (i.e. "skip a year') and want to understand what we're facing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panther340 Posted December 19, 2012 Share Posted December 19, 2012 Well 02 !............................ah........... not worth the trouble Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildman Posted December 19, 2012 Share Posted December 19, 2012 . i do want to run one thing by everyone that hasnt been brought up. so you link the val tag and trail permit to one another. nothing will prevent people from not renewing their val tags. NOTHING. more people will take the gamble with tighter budgets at home, knowing there is little law enforcement presence to enforce the trail permits let alone val tags. that probably has not come up because everyone in Ontario knows that your insurance is void without a val tag. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skidooboy Posted December 19, 2012 Share Posted December 19, 2012 and you dont think anyone runs their machines without insurance? heck, people drive cars EVERYDAY without insurance. ski Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dweese Posted December 19, 2012 Share Posted December 19, 2012 and you dont think anyone runs their machines without insurance? heck, people drive cars EVERYDAY without insurance. ski About 13% of all cars on the road actually. Based on the Insurance Board of Ontario's website. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildbill Posted December 19, 2012 Share Posted December 19, 2012 About 13% of all cars on the road actually. Based on the Insurance Board of Ontario's website. Isthat not a $5000.00 fine? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crackher Posted December 19, 2012 Share Posted December 19, 2012 Isthat not a $5000.00 fine? Ya, but for some I am sure that is a "calculated risk" they are willing to accept. especially if their insurance is greater than 5000.00 a year. I think it should be more but hey...I got smoked by a drunk driver years back and he had no license, no insurance and a court order against him...I guess what I am saying is that since you cannot legislate stupidity there will always be the 13 whatever % that do what they want when they want, how they want Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
02Sled Posted December 19, 2012 Share Posted December 19, 2012 We shouldn’t forget the everyday expenses living in Northern Ontario are a lot higher than ours. Gas, groceries, clothes, everything we buy and need down here is way more expensive up there. Choice is marginalised compared to the competition for sales down here. Even a trip to the doctors or a decent hospital can mean a few hours driving. Forget about buying a cheap car with decent fuel mileage, you need a decent gas guzzler 4x4 or you can‘t go far. Frankly I‘m glad people choose to live and work up there. Better than a big corporation taking everything over and not letting any of us up there. If they get a few breaks on val tags and other deductions, so what? Doesn‘t hurt our bottom line.. Don;t get me wrong. I realize all of what you said and don't begrude them any of those things in the least. It just seems that Panther is all about don't burden us with any expense related to sledding period. We want to ride wherever we choose and it shouldn't cost us anything. Sort of "we are special" I would just like to hear one positive comment about anything or one viable suggestion for improving the situation with the trails in northern Ontario. Either that or quit bashing everyone who cares about them. While I don't ride the trails in what I would call the far north. I would like to see them continue for those who do however at what cost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panther340 Posted December 19, 2012 Share Posted December 19, 2012 Why am I responsible for providing suggestion to keep your sport alive.........now of course I am going to jump in when you want your sport to be paid for by me. My suggestion is if your sport requires all the grooming and bridges and enviro costs that mNR burdens your sport with then raise the permit costs. Now other out of the box suggestions for the north , is maybe some towns would be interested in taking over the trails or work in partnership with OFSC,...an example would be Elliot Lake where they already are very snowmachine friendly allowing them on some roads etc and rely on the tourists much more than other towns so tax payers more likely to consider and their township boundaries are far outside town (to capture mining taxes in earlier years). they have industrial garages for equipment and mechanics that could help fix groomers etc etc........... so just a wild thought for OFSC to partner with towns where feasible, but it should not be up to someone outside your sport to come up with ideas......but don't expect me and others to pay for your sport on val tag. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dweese Posted December 19, 2012 Share Posted December 19, 2012 but don't expect me and others to pay for your sport on val tag. Your points are all very good, and yes I agree, but if it ever comes down to it, and give it a few years for this regional permit thing to flop, because I can't see it being a workable solution, and it will. The permit is going to end up being linked to the val tag, wait and see... Did some Google searching and I have found that... Saskatchewan, looks to be the only place in Canada that currently links the permit to your val tag, however if your riding on non-marked trails on crown land, or on your own land, than you don't need a val tag. You may cross roads and ride along them with out a val tag as well...But you do need insurance to ride the roads. New York state, Maine, New Hampshire, and it looks like every other state links the permit to the val tag. http://www.snowmobilers.org/facts_statelaws.html Panther340, the problem is you are a very small minority in the grand scheme of things. The OFSC is a powerful body in Ontario, and they have the support of the sled manufacturers behind them. If they show the government the numbers of sleds, vs the number of permits sold and the fact its already being done all over the US and in Saskatchewan, the MTO might just bite. Even more so if the OFSC can say, by doing this, we can lower our permit price by 20% or something... And since the voice of the north is very small in the government, there most likely be nothing you can do.... Now please, don't go flamming me back with a rant... I'm not picking on you or trying to support one side or the other. I buy a full season permit every year, and will keep doing it, its what I have to do to support the sport I enjoy. If I could ride the way you do with out the need to drop a few hundred bucks on a permit, I would. If you don't ride my trails then you shouldn't be forced to support them. I'm just saying, don't be surprised in 2 or 3 years if it happens. I'm sure its on the minds of the OFSC already, and the regional thing was a last ditch try before they suggest the val tag deal. The best idea would be for us to adopt the Saskatchewan system, those who don't ride trails would be happy, and if you did get stopped on a trail without a val tag, the fine could be greater and could be a fine against your driving record, which could effect your car insurance as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panther340 Posted December 19, 2012 Share Posted December 19, 2012 I hear ya Dweese and appreciate your frankness.......but the OFSC is underestimating the backlash of people that are not willing to pay for OFSC sport of others..... ... I did today find that other "dootalk" site that people talked about earlier in month and I see a 12 page thread about this same issue...and I see a few there like me with same reasoning. And considering that there is a silent major number out there that don't frequent sites like this, I think it could backfire. There are many in the north not happy with Government limiting access to crown land see the attached news clip as example http://www.sootoday....ils.asp?c=51201 articles and issues like that are hitting newspapers lately .......Others are not happy in north already with OFSC taking over logging roads or trails that exisited before etc etc for same reasoning of getting to long established fishing or hunting locations. So backlash will happen and ideally happen before OFSC talks government into it. I myself will start with letters to the editor and MPP bringing to light that the OFSC is trying to lobby the government behind the scenes pretending they speak for all Snowmachine owners etc etc.......one small voice from each community will sway a Government that already can't afford the existing support it provides, so it won't take much to convince them this is a dangerous can of worms to open. OFSC will get dragged thru the mud and or like Skidooboy suggested people won't bother getting val tags or insurance and cost to police will skyrocket as people bolt on trails ........... So instead of solving their own problems internally the OFSC is passing the buck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
couchrocket500 Posted December 19, 2012 Share Posted December 19, 2012 JUst a question I have after reading a post here about losing demerit points and one's insurance going up. If trail passes and val tags are linked can police begin laying traffic charges against sledders using the Highway Act with all it‘s definitions, fines and penalties? Someone should check that because that alone could mean a lot of permit holders might leave the sport rather than risk their licenses or see higher insurance costs due to fines. Wouldn’t be hard to get a stunt charge or worse on a rail line or other long straight section. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildman Posted December 19, 2012 Share Posted December 19, 2012 .......Others are not happy in north already with OFSC taking over logging roads or trails that exisited before etc etc for same reasoning of getting to long established fishing or hunting locations. So backlash will happen and ideally happen before OFSC talks government into it. maybe we should straighten something out. These people should be upset with their local snowmobile club, the ones that claim it as a club trail, that club belongs to the federation, not the other way around. There are a whole lot of people blowing smoke they know nothing about and the problem is people read this crap and it is totaly indicative of the way the whole thing works. you can keep havin atter like a bunch of old hens, but the fact is, it will never fly anyway.........we got turned down for a 10 dollar increase 2 years ago and that was just for people that buy passes, much less the general public that doesn't but owns a leagaly operated sled. A little uncommon sence goes along way u know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildman Posted December 19, 2012 Share Posted December 19, 2012 JUst a question I have after reading a post here about losing demerit points and one's insurance going up. If trail passes and val tags are linked can police begin laying traffic charges against sledders using the Highway Act with all it‘s definitions, fines and penalties? Someone should check that because that alone could mean a lot of permit holders might leave the sport rather than risk their licenses or see higher insurance costs due to fines. Wouldn’t be hard to get a stunt charge or worse on a rail line or other long straight section. not as long as there is the ontario snowmobile act, if they rewrote the legeslation there would be room for concern Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildman Posted December 19, 2012 Share Posted December 19, 2012 and you dont think anyone runs their machines without insurance? heck, people drive cars EVERYDAY without insurance. ski of course there is, but they don't buy val tag's either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred Quimby Posted December 19, 2012 Share Posted December 19, 2012 JUst a question I have after reading a post here about losing demerit points and one's insurance going up. If trail passes and val tags are linked can police begin laying traffic charges against sledders using the Highway Act with all it‘s definitions, fines and penalties? Someone should check that because that alone could mean a lot of permit holders might leave the sport rather than risk their licenses or see higher insurance costs due to fines. Wouldn’t be hard to get a stunt charge or worse on a rail line or other long straight section. This question just came up in a discussion in our trail patrol course and the answer from the OPP SAVE is yes..and no. It depends. Some things can for example (Impaired over 80-fall under the Criminal Code) while other things fall under the HTA and will affect your license, while other more minor things are under the MSVA. It all depends on what you do, how bad you do it and if there are injuries involved. It's that way now. It does not have to be linked to anything in the future. This will sound odd but a case we looked at was an impaired (non-licensed sledder) was charged and convicted. Sounds easy so far. Get this..the MTO then issued a class G drivers license number, so the court could suspend his license even though he had not had one in the first place! Most insurance companies will do a search on you every few months or at least annually to see if you have any demerit points against your license. Most are not aware that infractions occurring while on your snowmobile can affect your actual driving record, but not always. Some OPP are not aware of this either. You have to ask somebody who is a traffic specialist or very current with legislation which many are not. To no fault of theirs, it's how things work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
couchrocket500 Posted December 19, 2012 Share Posted December 19, 2012 Thanks for the response to my question guys. Multi-quote never seems to work for me so I’ll reply this way. I was aware of the over .08 because it’s the same with boating but not the rest. On a side note I was pulled over the other night and told to get new plates. My rear plate was unreadable and I never noticed. Anyway, apparently some (maybe all) cruisers now have computers, some even with cameras(?) where they can run your plate to see if you’re currently insured without even pulling you over. Maybe those days with uninsured drivers on our roads are short numbered. Not a bad thing IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dweese Posted December 19, 2012 Share Posted December 19, 2012 I hear ya Dweese and appreciate your frankness.......but the OFSC is underestimating the backlash of people that are not willing to pay for OFSC sport of others..... ... I did today find that other "dootalk" site that people talked about earlier in month and I see a 12 page thread about this same issue...and I see a few there like me with same reasoning. And considering that there is a silent major number out there that don't frequent sites like this, I think it could backfire. There are many in the north not happy with Government limiting access to crown land see the attached news clip as example http://www.sootoday....ils.asp?c=51201 articles and issues like that are hitting newspapers lately .......Others are not happy in north already with OFSC taking over logging roads or trails that exisited before etc etc for same reasoning of getting to long established fishing or hunting locations. So backlash will happen and ideally happen before OFSC talks government into it. I myself will start with letters to the editor and MPP bringing to light that the OFSC is trying to lobby the government behind the scenes pretending they speak for all Snowmachine owners etc etc.......one small voice from each community will sway a Government that already can't afford the existing support it provides, so it won't take much to convince them this is a dangerous can of worms to open. OFSC will get dragged thru the mud and or like Skidooboy suggested people won't bother getting val tags or insurance and cost to police will skyrocket as people bolt on trails ........... So instead of solving their own problems internally the OFSC is passing the buck. I'd like to agree with you, but a lot more people are going to speek out in support than against. If you tell all OFSC permit buyers that linking val tags will drop permit prices even $20 they are going to support it. You can write your letters and to your local MPPs however, look at the riding map... There are only 7 MPP ridings North of Sudbury, your representation is just too small. But I really think we have beat this to death, however I'm just saying, this could get forced apone you and as much as you like to think you could stop it if and when it happens, no one is going to know until its in place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred Quimby Posted December 19, 2012 Share Posted December 19, 2012 I heard the OPP and some Regional Police Services had cams that scanned traffic and ran plates at random or at the Officers direction and if it got a "hit' against no insurance, wham-o..the cherries come on. It is still new technology and i think from the article I saw, very expensive but in the automatic mode it can literally run thousands of plates a day, versus an Officer manually keying in plates could only be a couple hundred at best. And yes...your plate had to be legible. I know that if you were caught racing on a sled for example it would go against your license or if you caused bodily injury, or left the scene...that sort of thing. I believe they can even make a speeding ticket go against your DL now too.Often these things squeak in by us and we are not aware. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panther340 Posted December 19, 2012 Share Posted December 19, 2012 Dweese The letter to 10 northern MPPs went out this afternoon.........but I suspect with Government cutbacks even the trail subsidies the OFSC now gets will be sliced , and with possible pause in 2013 while new Government takes power.........by the time this gets worked out OFSC will likely be on a tombstone. But maybe we can hope for three good winters, manufacturing and mining and other good paying jobs come back to Ontario , USA comes out of recession and Skidoo makes and sells a new $4000 snowmachine model. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
couchrocket500 Posted December 19, 2012 Share Posted December 19, 2012 I heard the OPP and some Regional Police Services had cams that scanned traffic and ran plates at random or at the Officers direction and if it got a "hit' against no insurance, wham-o..the cherries come on. It is still new technology and i think from the article I saw, very expensive but in the automatic mode it can literally run thousands of plates a day, versus an Officer manually keying in plates could only be a couple hundred at best. And yes...your plate had to be legible. I know that if you were caught racing on a sled for example it would go against your license or if you caused bodily injury, or left the scene...that sort of thing. I believe they can even make a speeding ticket go against your DL now too.Often these things squeak in by us and we are not aware. Wow! I didn't know that. Hope you're wrong about the speeding ticket thing but agree many times things do get squeaked by. Do you think too much enforcement could lead to people leaving the sport because they just do not need the hazzle? I know boating in our area is becoming a hazzle (border) with both sides enforcing the rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasquatch777 Posted December 19, 2012 Share Posted December 19, 2012 Dweese The letter to 10 northern MPPs went out this afternoon.........but I suspect with Government cutbacks even the trail subsidies the OFSC now gets will be sliced , and with possible pause in 2013 while new Government takes power.........by the time this gets worked out OFSC will likely be on a tombstone. But maybe we can hope for three good winters, manufacturing and mining and other good paying jobs come back to Ontario , USA comes out of recession and Skidoo makes and sells a new $4000 snowmachine model. And I'm now writing one in favor! I'm from the North and fully support a Val tag fee for all snowmobiles. Many others are joining the cause! Orginized Clubs have a lot of sway! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panther340 Posted December 19, 2012 Share Posted December 19, 2012 Good ......now there is no way it can sneak in the back door, everyone will know one way or the other Will you be writing a letter to your newspaper too telling the world about the subsidy for the sport.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dweese Posted December 19, 2012 Share Posted December 19, 2012 I heard the OPP and some Regional Police Services had cams that scanned traffic and ran plates at random or at the Officers direction and if it got a "hit' against no insurance, wham-o..the cherries come on. It is still new technology and i think from the article I saw, very expensive but in the automatic mode it can literally run thousands of plates a day, versus an Officer manually keying in plates could only be a couple hundred at best. And yes...your plate had to be legible. I know that if you were caught racing on a sled for example it would go against your license or if you caused bodily injury, or left the scene...that sort of thing. I believe they can even make a speeding ticket go against your DL now too.Often these things squeak in by us and we are not aware. They have this on the 407, but it causes your transponder to send its ID out which the system than checks against your plate number and you get a $250 ticket for using a transponder not linked to that vehicle. Good ......now there is no way it can sneak in the back door, everyone will know one way or the other Will you be writing a letter to your newspaper too telling the world about the subsidy for the sport.... Be part of the solution not the problem, write your letters supporting a linked val system but have them adopt a system like I talked about they have in Saskatchewan. This way you don't even need a val tag anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildbill Posted December 19, 2012 Share Posted December 19, 2012 I'd like to agree with you, but a lot more people are going to speek out in support than against. If you tell all OFSC permit buyers that linking val tags will drop permit prices even $20 they are going to support it. You can write your letters and to your local MPPs however, look at the riding map... There are only 7 MPP ridings North of Sudbury, your representation is just too small. But I really think we have beat this to death, however I'm just saying, this could get forced apone you and as much as you like to think you could stop it if and when it happens, no one is going to know until its in place. Although personally I dissagree mostly with Panther . I will however fight for his right to speak his mind, that is democracy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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